In Defense of Arte Moreno

[Torridd]

I was just thinking about Upton and Moreno's necessary endorsement to "eat" the last year of his salary. Some of us call him "cheap" and question his dedication to winning and I'm one of those questioners. But with the release of Pujols and now Upton for significant dollars, it must be admitted that through these actions he must trust his upper management and is willing to make such substantial moves in the hopes of bettering the team. I'll try to remember these actions even when I'm upset that he hasn't signed a starting pitcher to a long contract, meaning at least 3 years or so. I'll try to remember that he bit the ultimate bullet to improve the team other than signing a free agent. 

[Angels 1961]

44 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I was just thinking about Upton and Moreno's necessary endorsement to "eat" the last year of his salary. Some of us call him "cheap" and question his dedication to winning and I'm one of those questioners. But with the release of Pujols and now Upton for significant dollars, it must be admitted that through these actions he must trust his upper management and is willing to make such substantial moves in the hopes of bettering the team. I'll try to remember these actions even when I'm upset that he hasn't signed a starting pitcher to a long contract, meaning at least 3 years or so. I'll try to remember that he bit the ultimate bullet to improve the team other than signing a free agent. 

Arte has spent money but not wisely. Bad long term contracts but many of those in MLB.

[Stradling]

Calling Arte cheap is the easy thing to do.  It’s never been accurate but it’s easy. 

[eligrba]

It's easy to conclude that Arte has spent poorly in retrospect.  I can only think of a few signings that seemed like bad ideas from day 1.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, eligrba said:

It's easy to conclude that Arte has spent poorly in retrospect.  I can only think of a few signings that seemed like bad ideas from day 1.

Hamilton seemed like a big risk, but on the field prior to signing him he was a stud. But a huge risk. I remember reading Seattle was in on Hamilton as well for around the same dollar amount.  Trading for Wells was a BAD decision.  No one could have predicted the rate at which Albert declined. Everyone knew he would be bad for the last few years.  But I don’t think anyone would have predicted he’d be bad by year 3.  

[Reveille1984]

I don't think the primary criticism of Moreno has ever been that he's cheap, to me anyways.  It's more that he's a notorious meddler and doesn't give his baseball operations staff the autonomy necessary to shift the franchise in a positive direction.  He isn't the only problem, but he's been the one constant over the past decade plus of mediocrity. 

My main issue is that the Angels are directionless as a franchise under his reign.  The whole 're-arming instead of rebuilding" strategy hasn't panned out, our farm is consistently in the bottom five every year (how much of that is on Arte cheaping out on scouting/development vs. our scouting just sucking, who knows), and the major league roster has had the same holes for seemingly ever that haven't been addressed.  Maybe Minasian's bullpen upgrade strategy will pan out, but like the other GMs before him he'll still be hamstrung by whatever internal limitations that Arte has in place.  

Long story short, Moreno isn't a huge blight on the team or anything in the way some other owners are.  But given the value of the media market we're in, it's hard to look at what other teams with both money and good player development can put on the field vs. what we're been doing.

[Taylor]

Arte isn't wrong 100% of the time. I was surprised when the Angels DFA'd Pujols, because it was essentially Arte and co. admitting that AP's presence and contract were a blight on the organization, and so I had mad respect for that move. Upton was a great deal at the time. It didn't pan out, unfortunately, but pretty much everyone here was excited when they locked him up. Like Upton, landing Shohei and extending Trout were part of Eppler's reign, but they couldn't have happened without Arte's approval. Rendon was another good move at the time IMO, and there's still plenty of time for that contract to pan out in a good way.

I've called Arte cheap in the past, but clearly that's the wrong word. Maybe reckless is a better word? Or as @Reveille1984, directionless. It also appears that Arte is willing to open the checkbook for big flashy signings (at least for hitters, SPs are another story), but quietly behind the scenes, he downsizes the amateur scouting department and seems disinterested in building a healthy organization from the ground up. Almost like he's comfortable keeping the team in mediocrity as long as it "looks" successful. 

[TroutBaseball]

I agree that he gets kudos for eating the Pujols and Upton contracts.  It's the best thing for the on-field product.

[Lou]

I made Doc's post!

[Angelsjunky]

The Angels have a very bad track record of signing big contracts under Arte that didn't pan out, some of them catastrophic. Arte is the common factor, with five different GMs (Stoneman, Reagins, Dipoto, Eppler, Minasian).

But sure, he isn't all bad - he was willing to eat the last year of the Pujols and Upton contracts. But it is sort of like an abusive husband bringing his wife a bag of frozen peas for her black eye. OK, not quite that bad, but my point is he's correcting errors that he largely was responsible for - and errors that hamstrung the team.

But as many have said, he meddles - and while he obviously knows business, he doesn't seem to know baseball. 

He isn't cheap, though. The Angels have consistently had a top 10 payroll, if never really top 5. When he missed out on Cole, he spent big on Rendon - a surprise to all of us. And of course there was his initial "big splashes" back in 2003-04 with Vlad, Colon, and Escobar, and then another wave in 2011-12 with Pujols, Wilson, and the Weaver exension. And he paid Trout. He isn't cheap, at least as far as free agency goes.

That said, he may be cheap in other ways, or perhaps negligent - scouting, player development (including housing for minor leaguers), talent analysis.

I also don't buy the argument that "most of those contracts seemed like good ideas at the time." It is the job of a front office to assess talent. The fact that the Angels are almost always wrong means they're not assessing talent. Pujols, Hamilton, and Wells were huge disasters; Upton not too far behind. Matthews. Most of the lesser big contracts didn't work out either, if not quite as disastrously: Weaver, Wilson, Colon. 

Only two worked out well, or better than expected: Vlad and Torii. Trout and Rendon are pending. So if I were grading, I'd say:

A = Vlad

B = Hunter

C = Colon

D = Weaver, Wilson

F = Matthews, Wells, Pujols, Hamilton, Upton

And some of those "assignments" are bigger than others, and it is weighted towards the Fs.

[UndertheHalo]

[Angel Oracle]

AJ’s assessment is right on, and pretty damning of Arte seemingly meddling and cheaping out in the important things like scouting.

How many other franchises have had that many FA signing failures?

Edited April 4, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[Slegnaac]

Walsh is the main reason Albert was released.

Adell, Ward and Marsh are the reasons Juston was released. 

If better options were not available within the organization neither of those moves would have been made.

[floplag]

You cannot argue he hasnt spent, thats simply not logical.
You cant even really argue he hasnt tried.
Where he has failed is that he let the mistakes make him gun shy.
I would not be surprised if we do not see another big money sighing that isnt a no brainer.. dont expect top dollar FA.
My real complaint with him is that he doesnt seem willing to finish the job.  He signed Trout, go Ohtani, Rendon... every possible option this club needed to go from playoff contender to WS contender was out there in the last couple years and we didnt close the deal.  
Now to be fair that may or may not fully be his fault, we dont know what goes on in those conversations, but that doesnt really change the facts.
If we had maybe one more quality starter, one more bullpen piece, were in that conversation... as is were back to hoping everyone stays healthy, when we all know that never happens. 
Thats the one thing i put squarely on ownership as we dont have the farm to make those trades so we are stuck spending, and they wont allow it, so... yeah, thats on them. 

[UndertheHalo]

I think it’s tough to be mad at Arte about FA signings.  The nature of it is that many/most of them turn ugly.  You do it understanding that.  I think it is fair to be critical of the way Arte has overseen player development.  Which seems to be not really doing much with it.  Certainly not keeping pace with the franchises that are much more successful.  It’s sort of a loop isn’t it ? Don’t produce enough good players on your own so you’re stuck shopping players who often times have played their best baseball.  And who often times don’t have a lot of good baseball left.  

[HanfordGuy]

Don’t hate on the “Arte”…hate on the players (they’re the ones that didn’t live up to expectations.)

[BTH]

He had to pay Pujols and Upton that money regardless of whether or not they're on the team, so I'm not gonna defend him or give him credit for that.

I will give him credit for giving his GM the autonomy to make those moves. But he still doesn't give his GMs as much autonomy as he should.

[Chuck]

2 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, Slegnaac said:

Walsh is the main reason Albert was released.

Adell, Ward and Marsh are the reasons Juston was released. 

If better options were not available within the organization neither of those moves would have been made.

^

[Angels 1961]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

Hamilton seemed like a big risk, but on the field prior to signing him he was a stud. But a huge risk. I remember reading Seattle was in on Hamilton as well for around the same dollar amount.  Trading for Wells was a BAD decision.  No one could have predicted the rate at which Albert declined. Everyone knew he would be bad for the last few years.  But I don’t think anyone would have predicted he’d be bad by year 3.  

Most baseball experts thought Albert signing was going to be bad last 5 to 6 years. Hamilton was a horrible deal from the start. Wells was bad, Gary Matthews Jr. was bad. All free agent starters on 1 year deals last 4 years have been bad except Cobb. I like the direction club is going in now young hungry players and hopefully stay away from long term 5 to 10 years deals from free agents. Ohtani being the exception sign him to extension today.

[gotbeer]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I also don't buy the argument that "most of those contracts seemed like good ideas at the time." It is the job of a front office to assess talent. The fact that the Angels are almost always wrong means they're not assessing talent. Pujols, Hamilton, and Wells were huge disasters; Upton not too far behind. Matthews. Most of the lesser big contracts didn't work out either, if not quite as disastrously: Weaver, Wilson, Colon. 

 

 

The problem with Moreno is he meddles in baseball affairs, and has delusions of grandeur.  For instance Pujols.  He was the one that wanted him.  He wanted to be the Yankees and Red Sox and Dodgers.  He wanted to make the big splash, just like them.  Not the baseball people.  He did.  And he signed him to a huge deal that pretty much hamstrung the Angels for the next 10 years.  And I can't remember who, but there was one other big signing that Moreno pretty much told the GM he wanted done.  These moves aren't on the Angels past GM's.  But it sure does affect their ability quite a bit.

[Angelsjunky]

3 minutes ago, gotbeer said:

 

The problem with Moreno is he meddles in baseball affairs, and has delusions of grandeur.  For instance Pujols.  He was the one that wanted him.  He wanted to be the Yankees and Red Sox and Dodgers.  He wanted to make the big splash, just like them.  Not the baseball people.  He did.  And he signed him to a huge deal that pretty much hamstrung the Angels for the next 10 years.  And I can't remember who, but there was one other big signing that Moreno pretty much told the GM he wanted done.  These moves aren't on the Angels past GM's.  But it sure does affect their ability quite a bit.

Yup. He tried to be George Steinbrenner and ended up being Peter Angelos. Or rather, Steinbrenner of the 80s/early 90s, before he pulled back and then the Yankees got really good again.

[DCAngelsFan]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

Yup. He tried to be George Steinbrenner and ended up being Peter Angelos. Or rather, Steinbrenner of the 80s/early 90s, before he pulled back and then the Yankees got really good again.

I think he reminds me a bit of Daniel Synder - neither are cheap, but what makes them bad owners, in part, is they're too much a fan, wanting to win now, or at least put butts in seats, meddling and repeatedly signing / trading for over-the-hill underperforming stars" to ruinously expensive contracts.  

There are many differences, too - (Snyder has egregious character issues) - but just like Snyder, Moreno seems mesmerized by star-power, and even after 20 years, hasn't made *any* progress on the one thing in baseball that can make you competitive year after after - scouting, drafting, and development.  We're just ... not good at it.  

There's no way to know what really happens inside the org - but the proof is in the results.  Teams like the Dodgers can trade surplus for needs all day long - we can't afford to trade a bag of peanuts, since that's gonna be our backup catcher.

The buck stops there

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

8 hours ago, Reveille1984 said:

My main issue is that the Angels are directionless as a franchise under his reign.  The whole 're-arming instead of rebuilding" strategy hasn't panned out, our farm is consistently in the bottom five every year (how much of that is on Arte cheaping out on scouting/development vs. our scouting just sucking, who knows), and the major league roster has had the same holes for seemingly ever that haven't been addressed.  Maybe Minasian's bullpen upgrade strategy will pan out, but like the other GMs before him he'll still be hamstrung by whatever internal limitations that Arte has in place.

This is where I have to add a little speech that some of you guys are tired of hearing.

The Angels farm system became horrible at precisely the time that Mike Trout became generational. At that moment, it’s like the franchise got stuck. They can’t fix the farm system by trading big leaguers (tanking with Trout) and they can’t fix the major league team by trading prospects because they didn’t have any. The only way to get better is through FA and most FA deals are bad because guys become FAs when they’re old and their previous team doesn’t want them. Obviously the return out of that player Pool is going to be bad. 

[BTH]

9 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

This is where I have to add a little speech that some of you guys are tired of hearing.

The Angels farm system became horrible at precisely the time that Mike Trout became generational. At that moment, it’s like the franchise got stuck. They can’t fix the farm system by trading big leaguers (tanking with Trout) and they can’t fix the major league team by trading prospects because they didn’t have any. The only way to get better is through FA and most FA deals are bad because guys become FAs when they’re old and their previous team doesn’t want them. Obviously the return out of that player Pool is going to be bad. 

Do you really believe they would've traded away big leaguers and rebuilt/tanked if they didn't have Trout? I thought Arte Moreno is against rebuilding?