The Official 2020-2021 Hot Stove Offseason Thread

[mmc]

 

[floplag]

16 hours ago, Second Base said:

I can't help but feel like if Eppler were GM, Ohtani wouldn't be dragged into an arbitration hearing. I mean overall, part of me wonders if Ohtani regrets coming to America and signing with the Angels. 

He gets hurt, and when he isn't hurt, his performance at the plate has lacked consistency and on the mound, it's been a trainwreck. He's played for a collection of underperforming teams that were presented to him as contenders. He's played for three different managers and has had three different pitching coaches. Some of the players he's actually developed a bond with are now gone, like Valbueba and Skaggs, may they rest in peace, Kinsler, and Calhoun. And the GM, the person he felt like he has such a connection with that he chose the Angels, is fired. 

I feel like the Angels, if they want this relationship to continue, need to do a few things. 

1. Don't make him go through arbitration. So squabbling over pennies comparatively.

2. Stick with the same coaching staff moving forward so the guy can actually get his bearings. 

3. Start winning immediately, and keep winning. 

4. Do everything they can to keep him healthy and productive, which isn't on them as much as it's on Shohei. 

Im sorry but you gotta produce to get paid.
Do i think quibbling over this much is silly, yeah, pretty much, but i dont think anyone would say hes lived up to the hype at this point.
Lets be 100% honest, if he has another injury plagues year or doesnt get enough at bats/.innings... are you going to pay him the 10-15M he will want or even more?
I hope like hell he has a year that makes them want to, but you gotta stay on the field to get the check. 
No one had the high ground here. 

[mmc]

 

[Inside Pitch]

14 minutes ago, floplag said:

Im sorry but you gotta produce to get paid.

Despite all that missed time and irregular usage he's been the 5th most productive DH in MLB since 2018.   He's managed another 0.9 fWAR as a pitcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=dh&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=650&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=

People's expectations are clouding their ability to view what he's actually done.   

The Shohei situation is different simply because he really doesn't have anyone he can really be compared to.  His two way status has impacted his usage to some degree but he's mostly been among the absolute best DHs in baseball the last three seasons even with the injuries and last years struggles.

[tdawg87]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

Despite all that missed time and irregular usage he's been the 5th most productive DH in MLB since 2018.   He's managed another 0.9 fWAR as a pitcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=dh&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=650&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=

People's expectations are clouding their ability to view what he's actually done.   

The Shohei situation is different simply because he really doesn't have anyone he can really be compared to.  His two way status has impacted his usage to some degree but he's mostly been among the absolute best DHs in baseball the last three seasons even with the injuries and last years struggles.

Getting a little sick and tired of your facts.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, mmc said:

 

Sox ended up ahead cutting him loose and bringing him back for less -- even after the 500K buyout. 

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Getting a little sick and tired of your facts.

All BS aside, I'd love to see how a MLB team would go about finding comps given his truly unique usage/situation.  I get people don't think he deserves special treatment... I tend to agree with that sentiment but his situation is unquestionably different.

Whatever, like everyone else at some point they will have to pay him or lose him.  

[wopphil]

I am not sold on Ohtani. Two years of declining offense and no ability to stay healthy on the mound. The talent is there, but I think it is more likely than not that he never puts it all together. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

13 minutes ago, wopphil said:

I am not sold on Ohtani. Two years of declining offense and no ability to stay healthy on the mound. The talent is there, but I think it is more likely than not that he never puts it all together. 

I've been skeptical from the beginning, simply because it has to be insanely hard to be an elite MLB pitcher AND an elite MLB batter. I think we saw that last year. After he put so much energy into getting back on the mound he looked completely lost at the plate. I still think he has the talent to be an elite MLB hitter and probably would be if he focused on it exclusively.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

You’d have to think it would cost them Devi Garcia.

and a lot more.  Frazier and Garcia shouldn't even get them close.  Add Jordan Montgomery and they're still pretty short.  Add Clarke Schmidt and then maybe they're there.  

I could see the yankees paying there way to this one and just taking on Moustakas.  Then the deal likely includes one of or both of Urshela and/or Andujar.  

So Frazier, Garcia, Schmidt (they're other top 100 pitching prospect), and Urshela.  

[Docwaukee]

40 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

All BS aside, I'd love to see how a MLB team would go about finding comps given his truly unique usage/situation.  I get people don't think he deserves special treatment... I tend to agree with that sentiment but his situation is unquestionably different.

Whatever, like everyone else at some point they will have to pay him or lose him.  

then the Angels would have to defend giving him extra money because of his uniqueness in every arb case for every other player for a long time.  It's just not a precedent they would want to set as it's so subjective.  

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

then the Angels would have to defend giving him extra money because of his uniqueness in every arb case for every other player for a long time.  It's just not a precedent they would want to set as it's so subjective.  

Yep,... makes what can be a sticky situation potentially even more contentious.   If anything, his injuries have likely made it less problematic because his side can't talk up his contributions as a pitcher.

[totdprods]

Throwing a global pandemic and Tommy John surgery into the middle of trying to learn how to do two skills versus better competition in a new country with a whole world watching has got to be a little tough too.

Gonna give Shohei a little slack here still. If 2021 is a relatively ‘normal’ year world/baseball-wise and he doesn’t have any major setbacks and he still continues to suck at one or both, then I’ll be a little more concerned and critical. But right now, have a pretty hard time worrying too much about any of this.

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Despite all that missed time and irregular usage he's been the 5th most productive DH in MLB since 2018.   He's managed another 0.9 fWAR as a pitcher.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=dh&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=650&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=

People's expectations are clouding their ability to view what he's actually done.   

The Shohei situation is different simply because he really doesn't have anyone he can really be compared to.  His two way status has impacted his usage to some degree but he's mostly been among the absolute best DHs in baseball the last three seasons even with the injuries and last years struggles.

Not disputing that... i didnt say he hasnt produced at all, just not the the point where he should be over payed.
AS i said i think quibbling over that amount is silly.

[Blarg]

5 hours ago, southpaw said:

I wrote this in the Ohtani topic and I think it applies here-

 

People are freaking out about the 800k difference and whether that Shohei is worth the 3.3 million or 2.5. But many seem confused about how the arbitration system works....

Still doesn't apply, no one is freaking out. 

[Redondo]

Which is correct payed or paid?

 

The correct past tense of the verb pay is paid, as long as the word is used in the financial or transactional sense. If the verb pay is used in a nautical sense, the correct form is payed.

 

I see a few posters here use this form of paid and wondered where they got it from.

[angelsnationtalk]

Angels have roughly $30M before hitting the tax. The Angels usually don't sit at the tax so I feel like they'll only spend roughly $10M-$15M

Get ready for another disappointing offseason. This time it'll be Musgove and then someone like Odorizzi. 

[tdawg87]

3 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Angels have roughly $30M before hitting the tax. The Angels usually don't sit at the tax so I feel like they'll only spend roughly $10M-$15M

Get ready for another disappointing offseason. This time it'll be Musgove and then someone like Odorizzi. 

Musgrove would not be disappointing even if we have $30 million.

[tdawg87]

Also you guys are stuck on "the tax". Arte cares about the actual payroll. This has been stated several times by Fletcher. 

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

Musgrove would not be disappointing even if we have $30 million.

Honestly I'm very mixed with him. I love him if he's paired with someone like Bauer. If he's paired with someone like Odorizzi or less then It's typical Angels. 

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Honestly I'm very mixed with him. I love him if he's paired with someone like Bauer. If he's paired with someone like Odorizzi or less then It's typical Angels. 

I don't want Odorizzi, but I'd be fine with Musgrove and Quintana.

[tdawg87]

Although if there's a realistic trade target I'd prefer it's Gray.

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

Although if there's a realistic trade target I'd prefer it's Gray.

Agreed. Though if the Yankees can pry away Castillo then I doubt they'll trade Gray. No way they lose their top 3 guys in one offseason.

And yes, Arte cares about actual payroll, but there's no way that he just decides to blow through the tax. His physical payroll has always been above him tax. Doubt that flips. 

[tdawg87]

12 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Agreed. Though if the Yankees can pry away Castillo then I doubt they'll trade Gray. No way they lose their top 3 guys in one offseason.

And yes, Arte cares about actual payroll, but there's no way that he just decides to blow through the tax. His physical payroll has always been above him tax. Doubt that flips. 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the "actual" payroll right now is about 151 million. It was 181 in 2019. Arte said the payroll wasn't going down, ergo...

[BTH]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Also you guys are stuck on "the tax". Arte cares about the actual payroll. This has been stated several times by Fletcher. 

The problem is that the actual payroll is only $15-$20 million below what it was at last year (before salaries were pro-rated).

So unless Arte gives Minasian more money to work with, they are somewhat limited.