Thoughts on Preventing Cheating

[Dtwncbad]

I am not really sure I care that much about this whole scandal.

If I stop and really think about it, I have to conclude that this was absolutely going to happen at some point.

My guess is this has probably been going on for decades.  And like many things, it runs its course.  At some point it becomes so prevalent that it suddenly becomes too common and well known for the institution of baseball to ignore.

So here we are.

It’s a tough sell to me that a couple of teams in the last couple of years were alone in doing this stuff.

It seems far more likely that more and more teams were doing it and at some point you can’t ignore the elephant in the room.

So the team that was easiest to catch gets nailed, an example is set with serious consequences and baseball saves some face and tries to set a new path.

It is fine.  I agree with cleaning it up.  But my main point is I really doubt this was rare enough for me to view anything as being tainted.  For me to conclude that a championship was tainted I have to be pretty certain all the other teams were not doing it.

Personally, at this point anyway, I just can’t conclude that.

So whatever.  I don’t like it, but move on.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Dtwncbad

[GregAlso]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

How about catchers give signals that the other team can’t decipher. Like they already do with a runner at 2nd and like managers and 3B coaches literally do every single time they give a sign. 

Isn’t that what they are using the replay room for, to decode those signs so that runners on second can relay it to the hitter? I thought that those complicated signs and changing signs was what was slowing the game down too? I read that The Nationals had a series of complicated signs they used in the WS versus Houston. Those signs may work but they can slow the game down. I guess I’m just confused by your suggesting with the state of the investigation already?

[GregAlso]

14 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I am not really sure I care that much about this whole scandal.

If I stop and really think about it, I have to conclude that this was absolutely going to happen at some point.

My guess is this has probably been going on for decades.  And like many things, it runs its course.  At some point it becomes so prevalent that it suddenly becomes too common and well known for the institution of baseball to ignore.

So here we are.

It’s a tough sell to me that a couple of teams in the last couple of years were alone in doing this stuff.

It seems far more likely that more and more teams were doing it and at some point you can’t ignore the elephant in the room.

So the team that was easiest to catch gets nailed, an example is set with serious consequences and baseball saves some face and tries to set a new path.

It is fine.  I agree with cleaning it up.  But my main point is I really doubt this was rare enough for me to view anything as being tainted.  For me to conclude that a championship was tainted I have to be pretty certain all the other teams were not doing it.

Personally, at this point anyway, I just can’t conclude that.

So whatever.  I don’t like it, but move on.

 

 

A lot of teams were doing it so it is hard to determine how tainted it is. But this particular problem began when replay started. It is directly related to the increase in availability of real-time video footage to the team on the field. It has a likely start date of 2014.  No need to hand wave this as having gone on forever. 

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

Recently?

Can you hit the broad side of a barn and/or Bartolo Colon with a shotgun?

Edited January 16, 2020 by True Grich

[Dtwncbad]

41 minutes ago, GregAlso said:

A lot of teams were doing it so it is hard to determine how tainted it is. But this particular problem began when replay started. It is directly related to the increase in availability of real-time video footage to the team on the field. It has a likely start date of 2014.  No need to hand wave this as having gone on forever. 

Not forever, and It makes sense that it increased once replay was implemented.  Fine.

But if you had to bet one way or another, was there video-related sign stealing going on in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc?

I would absolutely bet there was before I bet there wasn’t.

 

[GregAlso]

5 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Not forever, and It makes sense that it increased once replay was implemented.  Fine.

But if you had to bet one way or another, was there video-related sign stealing going on in the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc?

I would absolutely bet there was before I bet there wasn’t.

 

The tech to steal signs via real time video just wasn’t available back then. They could watch tape but only after the game, not during. This type of cheating requires access to real time video of the game you’re playing in. I’m betting this type didn’t occur until the 2000’s at the earliest and likely the 2010’s.

[Dtwncbad]

11 minutes ago, GregAlso said:

The tech to steal signs via real time video just wasn’t available back then. They could watch tape but only after the game, not during. This type of cheating requires access to real time video of the game you’re playing in. I’m betting this type didn’t occur until the 2000’s at the earliest and likely the 2010’s.

I don’t think anybody would argue that real time access wasn’t more efficient than reviewing tape.  I don’t really see how this matters in the point I am making.

Just saying I would bet teams or players have been using video to cheat for decades, so I am personally resisting the temptation to view this “scandal” as something that specifically taints one team or one championship.

 

[Pancake Bear]

51 minutes ago, GregAlso said:

The tech to steal signs via real time video just wasn’t available back then. They could watch tape but only after the game, not during. This type of cheating requires access to real time video of the game you’re playing in. I’m betting this type didn’t occur until the 2000’s at the earliest and likely the 2010’s.

There was some reliever whose book was pulled out yesterday(?) talking about using the bullpen feed back in the 80’s and signaling from there to the batter. Apparently there was no tape delay then?

But that’s the thing: It requires having a feed without tape delay. Replay opens up that possibility. 

[eligrba]

3 hours ago, True Grich said:

Can you hit the broad side of a barn and/or Bartolo Colon with a shotgun?

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 hours ago, GregAlso said:

Isn’t that what they are using the replay room for, to decode those signs so that runners on second can relay it to the hitter? I thought that those complicated signs and changing signs was what was slowing the game down too? I read that The Nationals had a series of complicated signs they used in the WS versus Houston. Those signs may work but they can slow the game down. I guess I’m just confused by your suggesting with the state of the investigation already?

Well it is true that it does slow the game down. But it is just one of 20 things that slows the game down, so I don’t see that as a big reason not to do it. 
 

And as far as I know it’s still up to a human to watch the signs and try to break the code. A computer doesn’t do it. 
 

All I’m saying is there are endless ways to disguise your signs. You also can use signs besides just fingers. 
 

A catcher is no different than a third base coach. 

[Pancake Bear]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Well it is true that it does slow the game down. But it is just one of 20 things that slows the game down, so I don’t see that as a big reason not to do it. 
 

And as far as I know it’s still up to a human to watch the signs and try to break the code. A computer doesn’t do it. 
 

All I’m saying is there are endless ways to disguise your signs. You also can use signs besides just fingers. 
 

A catcher is no different than a third base coach. 

Any word on this Trout thing going around on Twitter?

[Mark PT]

Get rid of any technology used for communication beyond a phone (wall) to communicate between the bullpen and dugout.

[Jeff Fletcher]

19 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Any word on this Trout thing going around on Twitter?

False

(The guy who wrote it has deleted his account.)

[Pancake Bear]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

False

(The guy who wrote it has deleted his account.)

Thanks. It’s all over twitter right now, but apparently it’s had rumors for several years. But I figure if you know nothing about it, it’s 100% bogus. 

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, floplag said:

While correct, were not talking about the same thing.  Youre looking at results, im talking about pitches per game, time of game, # of pitchers used in a game, raw data, not the result sets. 
Not to mention batting averages, stolen bases, and everything else that moneyball killed about the game.  
If these things were problematic we wouldnt be constantly talking about pace of game and time of game like we are.  

the number of pitches per game has only marginally increased and that can be attributed to fewer balls in play ie more swing and misses as the number of strikes has gone up by the same amount.  Total number of pitches per year is up less than 5% over the last 20 years.  

[GregAlso]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Well it is true that it does slow the game down. But it is just one of 20 things that slows the game down, so I don’t see that as a big reason not to do it. 
 

And as far as I know it’s still up to a human to watch the signs and try to break the code. A computer doesn’t do it. 
 

All I’m saying is there are endless ways to disguise your signs. You also can use signs besides just fingers. 
 

A catcher is no different than a third base coach. 

Again I thought the teams cheating were using the video room to decode just those type of signs given by catchers? I guess teams can go the route of the Nationals and change up signs multiple times a game and have endless complex signs but wouldn’t that even slow the game down more? Also wouldn’t that also cause more cross ups to happen and possible injuries or extra bases given? 
 

I get that is a human decoding those signs but with enough money teams will hire better code breakers and we have a new arms race, right?

[floplag]

22 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

the number of pitches per game has only marginally increased and that can be attributed to fewer balls in play ie more swing and misses as the number of strikes has gone up by the same amount.  Total number of pitches per year is up less than 5% over the last 20 years.  

id like to see your source on that if you please?
You may well be right, i couldnt find the numbers in a quick search this morning,  but it would seem to go against the prevailing wisdom of the moneyball era.
If guys are intentionally going up there with a different mindset and OBP has risen as averages have fallen, this would seem to be a little counter intuitive wouldnt you think?

[Taylor]

39 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

False

(The guy who wrote it has deleted his account.)

I didn't know the smug elite class that runs AW has control over Twitter. Right, @Newkem?

[Jeff Fletcher]

10 minutes ago, GregAlso said:

Again I thought the teams cheating were using the video room to decode just those type of signs given by catchers? I guess teams can go the route of the Nationals and change up signs multiple times a game and have endless complex signs but wouldn’t that even slow the game down more? Also wouldn’t that also cause more cross ups to happen and possible injuries or extra bases given? 
 

I get that is a human decoding those signs but with enough money teams will hire better code breakers and we have a new arms race, right?

Then they need to have better signs. 
 

I think it’s more realistic to ask the team giving the signs to have better signs than to ask other teams not to look. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

40 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Thanks. It’s all over twitter right now, but apparently it’s had rumors for several years. But I figure if you know nothing about it, it’s 100% bogus. 

I’ve heard it, and other rumors over the years. I’ve been assured it’s not true. 
 

I actually did ask today, just to cover myself, and was told it is 100 percent fake. But I’m not going to add any attention to a BS allegation by repeating it, even to refute it. (At least, not unless my boss makes me.)

[Newkem]

32 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I didn't know the smug elite class that runs AW has control over Twitter. Right, @Newkem?

Yep, Taylor

[Hubs]

I’m actually good with making the managers decide on whether to challenge a call blind. They shouldn’t get to challenge it after the team video guy looks at it on video. In the NFL they throw the flag before. Do it that way

[floplag]

10 minutes ago, RBM said:

Why don't you show us your source for your original statement.

Which was:

"Or more accurately, the number of pitches taken.
No one is going up there to be aggressive and hit anymore, they are going up there to take pitches and try to get on base."

Like I originally replied. Your statement is simply not true. It is not intuitive.

An understanding of how the game has changed... the approach to hitting... and maybe, just maybe, let doc answer his own posts?  
Jesus you cant help yourself anymore can you... a civil question and you gotta play the role.

[failos]

Play naked I guess

[Lou]

11 minutes ago, Φαήλος said:

Play naked I guess

I'm a yes