When does a team become a very good team?

[REDneck]

I think we're all waiting on this team, sure their not to bad contending for sure.

But when does a team actually establish itself as a very good team?  

From the start of the season like the Rays and Rangers...both teams have cooled a bit.

Or like the Braves? Who are now quietly approaching the best record in MLB. Or do you just get hot in the 2nd half like the Phillies last year and ride it out to a WS appearance.

I would like to see the Halos establish themselves as a very good team now instead of hoping to get hot after the break,or at game 120 or 140.

Breaking even against the Royals,Rocks and Sox is just not impressive..notice I left out the Dogs.

So when?

[Revad]

If it happens it will be soon or there will be no playoffs.  A good team plays bad teams well and good teams better.

[fan_since79]

Just think how good we'll be if we lose Ohtani.

Perish the thought. We CANNOT lose Ohtani.

Another good starter or two would go a long way. Fewer injuries too would help. 

And Arte...sell the team!!

[Angelsfan1984]

When they can sweep all 3 games of a series instead of sweeping just 2 of 3

[PattyD22]

They will become a very good team when they can match up the great pitching performances with great offensive performances.

Often times this season, we’ve seen our pitchers perform fantastic, only to see the offense give that pitcher zero offensive production.

Or we see what we saw yesterday.  Good offensive performance and a complete pitching meltdown.

Sync up those two aspects, and you’ll have a great team.

[Stradling]

88-90 is a good team. 95+ wins is a very good team. 

[Hubs]

They need to go on a run and they need to beat the bad teams, they don't need to sweep but they need to do better than 3-4. In the last four series since they played the Rangers in Texas, they are 5-6. Just two games better and we'd all still be very excited. 

Starting today, they start a 8 game stretch against the NL West. I want 5-3 minimum, and it's definitely doable. That's 2-1 against the D'Backs at home, 2-1 against the Padres in SD and 1-1 against the Dodgers at Chavez. 

Then its the All-Star Break.

Then they play the Astros, Yankees, and Pirates at home for 9. Followed by a 9 game roadie with Detroit, Toronto, and Atlanta. 

The Trade Deadline is the next day when that trip finishes.

Rendon and Neto should be back at some point, and it's possible that they add. I'd like to see them add someone over the break, because they need another starter on that 18 game stretch. 

They need help with RISP and they need help with starting pitching. Barria did well for a few but has looked very hittable in his last. 

[WicketMaiden]

14 hours ago, REDneck said:

I would like to see the Halos establish themselves as a very good team now instead of hoping to get hot after the break,or at game 120 or 140.

 

Breaking even against the Royals,Rocks and Sox is just not impressive..notice I left out the Dogs.

So when?

I'd rather they were on a hot streak going into the play-offs. If they can stay in the race until game 120+, a ten game win streak could be enough to put them over, and when everything clicks this team easily has a ten or twelve game win streak in them. They just need to stay relevant now, and then kick on after the break.

[Brandon]

When they win

[Angelsjunky]

Baseball is a long season, so even great teams will stumble on occasion. But very good teams are consistent - they don't lose a lot of games they should have won, and tend to win games that they're ahead going into later innings.

In addition to what others have said, I'll emphasize a true hot streak. Most very good teams go on a really nice run or two: 7+ game win streaks.

Also, re-emphasize picking on bad teams. They should be winning 3 of 4 (at least) from teams like the White Sox, and shouldn't be losing series to the Rockies. 

Right now they're an 85-90 win team, which is "good" but not "very good" (90-95), and certainly not great (95+).

[ukyah]

my answer is what i heard a st. louis cardinal say one time years ago. the goal is to play .500 on the road and significantly above at home. you do that and you're going to be a great team by default.

[Torridd]

19 hours ago, REDneck said:

I think we're all waiting on this team, sure their not to bad contending for sure.

But when does a team actually establish itself as a very good team?  

From the start of the season like the Rays and Rangers...both teams have cooled a bit.

Or like the Braves? Who are now quietly approaching the best record in MLB. Or do you just get hot in the 2nd half like the Phillies last year and ride it out to a WS appearance.

I would like to see the Halos establish themselves as a very good team now instead of hoping to get hot after the break,or at game 120 or 140.

Breaking even against the Royals,Rocks and Sox is just not impressive..notice I left out the Dogs.

So when?

Great question! I hope to read good answers.

[Duren, Duren]

Ideally, you draft excellently and make trades for prospects with potential, and create a young nucleus at key positions.

Then let them play together in the minors if possible  while being taught by smart and patient coaches. That requires good scouts, specialized position coaches/teachers and a willingness to go through some type of multi year rebuild.

Not necessarily tearing everything apart all at once, but by replenishing the roster by adding cost controlled youngsters and removing declining expensive veterans. 

Which also implies being able to handle fan and media criticism without alienating them. Not easy in many organizations. But actually probably easier after a team has had a good run of success and starts declining. Then it's understood as part of the cycle of rebuilding. 

And even fans of terrible teams usually understand that a rebuild is necessary to get out of the loop of constant losing. 

But for organizations like the Angels it's more difficult. They haven't been terrible, but haven't been good enough for almost a decade. And fans are used to having big name, ultra expensive stars on the roster. Plus an owner who prioritizes that.

So there can never be a full scale rebuild for instance while Trout is still here because it would be considered an insult to his career contribution to be surrounded by many raw prospects and project players. And not be focussed on playoff contention, but just solid growth. So the transfusion has to be slow and delicate rather than ruthless. 

Assuming Ohtani leaves then the team will be forced into being revamped and reconstructed. An ace starter and elite power hitter are gone instantly. You don't replace that with youth unless you have the elite prospects in the system. Which it isn't the case.

And that means more expensive signings and/or  trades. So the loop remains the same. But a slew of other veterans may need to be removed, provided high potential replacement prospects can emerge. Which will be difficult in some cases because of contracts and limited interest elsewhere. And high end prospects will need time and experience to mature in the big leagues. 

Without Ohtani I see one, maybe two years of relative playoff contention. A .500 type team who may be better if things fall in place. I would assume that Neto, O'Hoppe, three or four of the young pitchers have bigger roles next year. And some shuffling of veterans in and out. Rendon will have to have a much more productive role and take up some of the slack lost with Ohtani. 'Tony two bags' needs to be revived. 

But the real key will be who Arte pays to replace Ohtani on the mound. 

Obviously a big hitter is needed too, but there should be enough depth to compensate if the new guy is at least a proven better than average run producer. 

Remember too that a lot of the mystique about Ohtani is that he's one guy doing two jobs at the highest level. If they can land a bona fide ace type pitcher and a solid hitter the end result may not be as glamorous but the drop off night not be so severe. 

And a possible bonus may be signing a hitter who also is a good fielder. The DH can be filled by anyone, really. But if they can get a multi skilled position player it shores up the defense and allows more versatility.

I'd hate to see Ohtani leave, but it might not be the end of the world. Provided Perry/Arte find the right replacements. Which will be a soap opera in it's own right. 

 

[Angel Oracle]

It’s admittedly a tough decision with Ohtani.

As great as he is with both hitting and pitching, how long can he do it for at similar levels.

Yet, you can’t lose what he would bring you for at least the next few seasons.

They should free up some $30-35 million AAV this off season.   Ohtani will command $15-20 million of that in addition to the $30 million he currently makes.

Will Arte Moreno finally go over the tax threshold for the first time in 20 seasons in 2024?   He always said he would do it for the right player.  Time to see if he is telling the truth?

Edited July 1, 2023 by Angel Oracle

[Taylor]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:43 AM, Stradling said:

88-90 is a good team. 95+ wins is a very good team. 

So maybe this thread should be, "When will the Angels be a good team?"

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Taylor said:

So maybe this thread should be, "When will the Angels be a good team?"

I mean at the 81 game mark they were on pace to be an 88 win team. So assuming this is just a rough patch (with obviously is an assumption) this would qualify as a good team. 

[Taylor]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I mean at the 81 game mark they were on pace to be an 88 win team. So assuming this is just a rough patch (with obviously is an assumption) this would qualify as a good team. 

They have to make it to the end of the season. Projections don't really mean anything, positive or negative. It's a marathon not a 5K.

[Stradling]

12 minutes ago, Taylor said:

They have to make it to the end of the season. Projections don't really mean anything, positive or negative. It's a marathon not a 5K.

Correct. Except my sample size would be a half marathon. 

[Docwaukee]

First, just by the raw numbers (base runs), they are three wins short of where they should be based on their performance.  And I think that matches with what we've seen of this team.  That there is better results to be had with the team that's on the field.   Even with what they've shown, they should be a 90 win team.  But the results don't match up with that.  

Second is performance relative to reasonable expectations.    I'm estimating about 1400 PA of underperformance.  About a 1000 of overperformance.  And the rest about at expected.  The net is about -200 PA.  So only about 6% which may not seem like much at first glance.  But add 6% more runs to our total.  I know that's some pretty shitty math in there but my point is that even though we've scored the 6th most runs in baseball, my eyes tell me we've left some on the table.  Another 25 runs is nothing to sneeze at.  

On the starting pitching side,    I would say that Detmers, Canning and Ohtani are performing at.  Barria as a starter is at.  But even still it feels like there is more there from at least Ohtani and Detmers.  And if we just go innings it's about 40%.  Again, that's some pretty gorilla calc there but even if you pare it way down also call it another 20 runs or so that they shouldn't have given up.  

I think the pen is actually pretty decent overall.  The construction of which has left runs on the table.  Highly critical ones to be honest.  But it was always sort of going to be what it's been.  Getting a couple guys back I think it's supportive of a really good team.  

So some mental gymnastics to say yes.  This is a team that could and should make the playoffs.  But two things have to happen.  The results have to match up better with the performance, and the performance has to match up better with what is reasonably expected.  I think the numbers and what I see supports 95 wins.  

It hasn't exactly been boiled butt steak and mushy fries but a slightly overcooked ribeye with a side of somewhat bland mashed potatoes.  It's a nice restaurant but it costs a pretty penny and the ingredients are there.  They need to better execute the meal.  

[Blarg]

So you are saying Nevin, the chef, needs to be fired?

[Revad]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

So you are saying Nevin, the chef, needs to be fired?

I’d say Nevin is more of the line cook as opposed to the chef.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

When they don’t have “Angels” on the front of the uni.  

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

14 minutes ago, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

When they don’t have “Angels” on the front of the uni.  

Don’t wear out that emoji @Stradling

[Stradling]

Just now, The Ghost of Bob Starr said:

Don’t wear out that emoji @Stradling

Ok Bob. Add some sort of value to this place other than letting me know how much the team has sucked, then you can suggest how I behave on here. You literally show up to let us know how you are above it all. 

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok Bob. Add some sort of value to this place other than letting me know how much the team has sucked, then you can suggest how I behave on here. You literally show up to let us know how you are above it all. 

I’m not above anything. I suffer just like you do.  You know this.  You were among those who complained years ago when I was vocal against Sosh, then when I was the vocal minority against Arte. 
 

Little has changed. So I stay vocal.