Angels linked to Tomoyuki Sugano, deadline is 1/7 (update: stays in NPB)

[beatlesrule]

All with Arte in charge. FACT.

[Inside Pitch]

16 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

 

Both valid and good points. Strictly going by his Japan numbers, dude would have helped us even if his ERA was a full run higher. Again, he might have wanted nothing to do with Anaheim. Unless reports come out that the Angels didn't even ask about him, it's only speculation. On the surface, it sure seems like the Angels should have been the team to meet his asking price.

There is no question he could have helped.  Maybe next year it's different and we find out how good he could be.   But like I said in my long winded post, translating those numbers into accurate forecasts has proven to be a lot harder than minor league MLEs and the sort.   In both directions.  A bunch of guys have played up here after being considered lesser pitchers.   I think that raggedy track record is why teams were unwilling to throw him the money he would have seen in any normal year.   

[Blarg]

I hate to be a pessimist but so many of these Japanese pitchers blow their arms out within a year that I can't really get excited about signing them to a contract. Maybe Sugano had enough mileage that he could withstand the larger/heavier ball, less time off between starts and a longer season. Or maybe he blows up in July. 

We all want a higher value starting pitcher. I would like to see one that completes his contract on the field and not spend 16 months trying to get feeling back into their fingertips. 

[failos]

58 minutes ago, T.G. said:

On 7/6/2018 at 9:52 PM, failos said:

MLB just shot itself in the foot. I don't know how much the rest of you know about Japanese baseball culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an a******. If you screw someone over in Japan by shitty negotiating, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance. What this means is the Japanese public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to support the MLB, nor will they watch any games. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but MLB has alienated an entire market with this move. Every MLB GM needs to  publicly apologize and resign or you can kiss future Japanese baseball players from coming to the USA good-bye.

Expand  

Very wise words

[Revad]

But Blarg agreed maybe we should about this. I’m confused.

[T.G.]

13 minutes ago, Revad said:

But Blarg agreed maybe we should about this. I’m confused.

Yes... yes, you are.

[beatlesrule]

8:03pm: Sugano has re-signed with Yomiuri on a four-year, $40MM contract, per Rosenthal. The deal includes three opt-out chances, so Sugano will have future opportunities to become a major leaguer.

That doesn't seem like a lot of money so was he asking for double that to be a major leaguer?

[Pancake Bear]

19 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

8:03pm: Sugano has re-signed with Yomiuri on a four-year, $40MM contract, per Rosenthal. The deal includes three opt-out chances, so Sugano will have future opportunities to become a major leaguer.

That doesn't seem like a lot of money so was he asking for double that to be a major leaguer?

Heard he wanted around 15 per. 

[Docwaukee]

16 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

8:03pm: Sugano has re-signed with Yomiuri on a four-year, $40MM contract, per Rosenthal. The deal includes three opt-out chances, so Sugano will have future opportunities to become a major leaguer.

That doesn't seem like a lot of money so was he asking for double that to be a major leaguer?

whatever he asked for, every single major league team passed.  

every.  single.  one.  

somehow you have the right answer for the Angels whereas stacks of people in front offices all around seemed to think differently.  Yet the Angels should have acted differently because they're a bit more desperate than most?  

Do you realize how illogical your thought process is?  

The team arguably most desperate for pitching should do something that no other team thought was a good idea and spend almost 15m per season on 31yo player with no major league track record and a lingering elbow injury?  

How about someone makes some good decisions for the Angels so they don't end up where they are again.  

I'm gonna wait and see as well considering that the off season isn't over yet.  

[Stradling]

37 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

8:03pm: Sugano has re-signed with Yomiuri on a four-year, $40MM contract, per Rosenthal. The deal includes three opt-out chances, so Sugano will have future opportunities to become a major leaguer.

That doesn't seem like a lot of money so was he asking for double that to be a major leaguer?

I haven’t seen anyone say he was asking for $20 million a season.  

[tdawg87]

4/40 is actually about what I expected him to sign for. I guess no MLB GM wanted to top that. Can't say I blame them.

That's also a sign that Yomiuri really wanted to keep him.

[beatlesrule]

MLB Network’s Jon Morosi has reported that the Mets are among five teams actively pursuing the right-hander, along with the Blue Jays, Padres, Giants and Red Sox.

(His) slider is perhaps the best in Japan and he can control it to both sides of the plate. It's a devastating offering when he buries it inside against lefthanded hitters. Sugano's velocity was slightly up in 2020 and he also induced more swinging strikes. He upped his splitter usage and also threw a cutter, curveball and shuuto. His control was as strong as ever.

Most scouts believe Sugano -- who features a low-90s fastball, plus slider, and elite command -- profiles as a mid-rotation starter in the majors, with the ceiling of a No. 2 starter. Unsurprisingly, he’s viewed as the prize of the overseas market this offseason.

 

So the Angels were not mentioned as being after him. Scouts really like him. He got a 4/40 deal with 3 opt outs to play back in Japan. I can't find any articles that state what he was offered by MLB teams so I have to think it was under 10 million a year. I agree it's odd that a guy that is highly touted by scouts did not come to any agreement with the 5 teams reportedly pursuing him. It's odd that more teams weren't after him unless those were the only teams he wanted to play for. I just can't find a lot of info like we had with Ohtani. A number 2 starter sure sounds appealing for 15 million a year if that's what it would take to play in the MLB. Usually, players take less to come here so it's odd he chose Japan. I don't understand the thought that he is trying to build up his value. His last 5 years have been outstanding in Japan.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

MLB Network’s Jon Morosi has reported that the Mets are among five teams actively pursuing the right-hander, along with the Blue Jays, Padres, Giants and Red Sox.

(His) slider is perhaps the best in Japan and he can control it to both sides of the plate. It's a devastating offering when he buries it inside against lefthanded hitters. Sugano's velocity was slightly up in 2020 and he also induced more swinging strikes. He upped his splitter usage and also threw a cutter, curveball and shuuto. His control was as strong as ever.

Most scouts believe Sugano -- who features a low-90s fastball, plus slider, and elite command -- profiles as a mid-rotation starter in the majors, with the ceiling of a No. 2 starter. Unsurprisingly, he’s viewed as the prize of the overseas market this offseason.

 

So the Angels were not mentioned as being after him. Scouts really like him. He got a 4/40 deal with 3 opt outs to play back in Japan. I can't find any articles that state what he was offered by MLB teams so I have to think it was under 10 million a year. I agree it's odd that a guy that is highly touted by scouts did not come to any agreement with the 5 teams reportedly pursuing him. It's odd that more teams weren't after him unless those were the only teams he wanted to play for. I just can't find a lot of info like we had with Ohtani. A number 2 starter sure sounds appealing for 15 million a year if that's what it would take to play in the MLB. Usually, players take less to come here so it's odd he chose Japan. I don't understand the thought that he is trying to build up his value. His last 5 years have been outstanding in Japan.

There was an article that said he wanted a contract similar to what Kikuchi got in Seattle, which I believe was 4 years and $56 million.  He’s also 3 years older than Kikuchi was when he arrived in the states.

[Docwaukee]

2 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

MLB Network’s Jon Morosi has reported that the Mets are among five teams actively pursuing the right-hander, along with the Blue Jays, Padres, Giants and Red Sox.

(His) slider is perhaps the best in Japan and he can control it to both sides of the plate. It's a devastating offering when he buries it inside against lefthanded hitters. Sugano's velocity was slightly up in 2020 and he also induced more swinging strikes. He upped his splitter usage and also threw a cutter, curveball and shuuto. His control was as strong as ever.

Most scouts believe Sugano -- who features a low-90s fastball, plus slider, and elite command -- profiles as a mid-rotation starter in the majors, with the ceiling of a No. 2 starter. Unsurprisingly, he’s viewed as the prize of the overseas market this offseason.

 

So the Angels were not mentioned as being after him. Scouts really like him. He got a 4/40 deal with 3 opt outs to play back in Japan. I can't find any articles that state what he was offered by MLB teams so I have to think it was under 10 million a year. I agree it's odd that a guy that is highly touted by scouts did not come to any agreement with the 5 teams reportedly pursuing him. It's odd that more teams weren't after him unless those were the only teams he wanted to play for. I just can't find a lot of info like we had with Ohtani. A number 2 starter sure sounds appealing for 15 million a year if that's what it would take to play in the MLB. Usually, players take less to come here so it's odd he chose Japan. I don't understand the thought that he is trying to build up his value. His last 5 years have been outstanding in Japan.

that means it's just not true.  

or you could look at it another way.  Garret Richards is potentially a #2 starter.  

[beatlesrule]

Sugano was a more proven and better pitcher in Japan. I understand he is 3 years older. I'm curious if we will find out what teams offered him and if the Angels even made a bid. If he wanted 56 million to play in the USA, he took 16 million less to go back to Japan.  That's just really odd. Did teams offer him 12 million a year? 8 million? 13? 11? I hope we get more info. This whole thing just seems odd.

[tdawg87]

I don't see what's odd about it?

He didn't get the contract offers he wanted from the MLB, and his home team in Japan wanted to make a competitive offer and did.

I'm sure there's more to it but that seems to be pretty straightforward.

[Docwaukee]

4 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Sugano was a more proven and better pitcher in Japan. I understand he is 3 years older. I'm curious if we will find out what teams offered him and if the Angels even made a bid. If he wanted 56 million to play in the USA, he took 16 million less to go back to Japan.  That's just really odd. Did teams offer him 12 million a year? 8 million? 13? 11? I hope we get more info. This whole thing just seems odd.

better than who?  Kikuchi?  he wasn't.  I posted their numbers earlier in the thread.  not a huge difference and Sugano had three more years of NPB for age 28-30.  Or Richards?  Do you know how much Richards would dominate in Japan?  

and why is it odd?  

most of the time guys who don't get what they are asking for sit on the free agent market and end up with a 1yr deal somewhere.  This guy had backup so if he didn't get something better than his backup then why bother?  

As @Inside Pitch mentioned earlier, this guy was looking to get paid.  He had $40m on the table.  No team in mlb thought he was worth that or more so they passed.  

Teams just didn't think he was that good.  No one passes on a #2 for 15m per.  

[DCAngelsFan]

 

11 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

better than who?  Kikuchi?  he wasn't.  I posted their numbers earlier in the thread.  not a huge difference and Sugano had three more years of NPB for age 28-30.  Or Richards?  Do you know how much Richards would dominate in Japan?  

and why is it odd?  

most of the time guys who don't get what they are asking for sit on the free agent market and end up with a 1yr deal somewhere.  This guy had backup so if he didn't get something better than his backup then why bother?  

As @Inside Pitch mentioned earlier, this guy was looking to get paid.  He had $40m on the table.  No team in mlb thought he was worth that or more so they passed.  

Teams just didn't think he was that good.  No one passes on a #2 for 15m per.  

 

Not to mention, any MLB team would've had a posting fee surcharge on top of it - a $40m deal would add $7.7m on top, (payable "up-front", I believe.)

And look at it front his perspective - he's going to have to move to an entirely different country, where he doesn't speak the language, leave his home, his friends, his life.  I think he'd need a substantial improvement in compensation to make that move.  It would need to be - as he was demanding - a better-than-Kikuchi-like deal - 4/$56 - to make that move.

Maybe in a different year, he gets that offer.  But maybe using Kikuchi as a comp wasn't the best strategy - Kikuchi has little chance to make good on his contract now.  

[Docwaukee]

9 minutes ago, DCAngelsFan said:

 

 

Not to mention, any MLB team would've had a posting fee surcharge on top of it - a $40m deal would add $7.7m on top, (payable "up-front", I believe.)

And look at it front his perspective - he's going to have to move to an entirely different country, where he doesn't speak the language, leave his home, his friends, his life.  I think he'd need a substantial improvement in compensation to make that move.  It would need to be - as he was demanding - a better-than-Kikuchi-like deal - 4/$56 - to make that move.

Maybe in a different year, he gets that offer.  But maybe using Kikuchi as a comp wasn't the best strategy - Kikuchi has little chance to make good on his contract now.  

and maybe mlb teams were a bit concerned about his motivation.  like with any significant contract that's handed out.  Most guys have enough pride or motivation to want to continue to compete but big money can change people.  

I just think it speaks volumes that not a single team was willing to pony up.  The mets have money and they chose to give up prospects to spend money in a different way instead.  

[Bronson]

Meh it’s over with. Didn’t Ohtani say that he didn’t want to play with any other Japanese players? 

[DCAngelsFan]

9 hours ago, Dochalo said:

and maybe mlb teams were a bit concerned about his motivation.  like with any significant contract that's handed out.  Most guys have enough pride or motivation to want to continue to compete but big money can change people.  

I just think it speaks volumes that not a single team was willing to pony up.  The mets have money and they chose to give up prospects to spend money in a different way instead.  

Absolutely - while I didn't mention "motivation", I only discussed "money" as his sole motivator - that was deliberate.    

I was thinking that, unlike many NPB players like Ohtani who came here for the challenge of playing at the highest level, the only reason he wanted to come here was to make more money.  

There were suggestions his work ethic might be a little suspect - not a good trait as he ages.  

As a GM, that attitude isn't going to tempt me to take much of a chance on him.  He's got talent, but this isn't the year, and he's not the guy I'd risk a lot of money on.  

[Jay]

Angels weren't even in the conversation on this guy?

[eligrba]

11 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Sugano was a more proven and better pitcher in Japan. I understand he is 3 years older. I'm curious if we will find out what teams offered him and if the Angels even made a bid. If he wanted 56 million to play in the USA, he took 16 million less to go back to Japan.  That's just really odd. Did teams offer him 12 million a year? 8 million? 13? 11? I hope we get more info. This whole thing just seems odd.

Look at the currency conversion for the amount he signed for in Japan.  Reports indicated that he was looking in the Kikuchi pay range.  His own Japanese team didn't think he was worth what Kikuchi earns.

Who knows why people do what they do.  I would guess he was looking for one last big contract to ease into retirement and MLB is probably more flush with money than NPB.

[eligrba]

46 minutes ago, Jay said:

Angels weren't even in the conversation on this guy?

I'm ok with that if Minasian and company didn't think it was a good use of resources.  I don't ever want to see another CaHarvTehron signing.  I think this is the type of change in front office thinking that needs to happen.

[Jay]

What kind of income tax do they have in Japan?