According to MiLBAdvocates, Angels are not paying their Minor Leaguers despite saying they'd be paid $400/week stipends through August

[Lou]

5 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

Ok, so you want a player who is in A+ ball with the '66ers to make $13/hour. And then when he gets promoted AA ball with the BayBears you want him to take a 48% pay cut and make $7.25/hour. And then when he makes it to AAA SLC he is still making $7.25/hour and still making 48% less than the players in A+ ball.

Good plan guys.

They are salaried employees, not hourly. This whole minimum wage debate is not well thought out. There is a Federal minimum of 7.25/hour and It can be adjusted up differently in every State.

Great post. 

This is why I was trying to get an actual breakdown on the pay vs minimum wage argument.

[Lou]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Like I said a few pages ago, those are two totally separate discussions. 

Right. So you think they should be paid at least minimum wage, which I agree with.

How do you feel about Arte paying them only what he is contractually obligated to pay? (Which is the discussion topic)

[AngelsLakersFan]

10 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

Ok, so you want a player who is in A+ ball with the '66ers to make $13/hour. And then when he gets promoted AA ball with the BayBears you want him to take a 48% pay cut and make $7.25/hour. And then when he makes it to AAA SLC he is still making $7.25/hour and still making 48% less than the players in A+ ball.

Good plan guys.

They are salaried employees, not hourly. This whole minimum wage debate is not well thought out. There is a Federal minimum of 7.25/hour and It can be adjusted up differently in every State.

This is stupid. I'm saying follow the law, play by the same rules, don't lean on the loop holes your buddies in congress have given to you and only you. Athletes already pay taxes to every state they play in. Regular companies already pay their workers differing wages based on local laws and job classifications. And no they are not salaried employees, salaried employees are required to be paid significantly more than minor league players. And before you call them contractors, they are not contractors either. Contractors do not sign an agreement that ties them to an entity for the next 7 years.

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

That isn't a loop hole. It is the law.

And what MLB is doing now is the law. They are salaried. They are not hourly. Those are the two options.

Yes they are following a law that was passed specifically for them. Congress called it the "Save America's Pastime Act" ::jerk off emoji:: and it allowed teams to skirt minimum wage and overtime laws by making sure each player was compensated the federal minimum wage for 40 hours per week during the regular season regardless of how many hours they work or the laws of the states or cities they play in.

[ukyah]

16 hours ago, Game 6 said:

It's not different. My friends who did internships out of college worked for at profit companies. They made no money. It was their choice. Toilet paper is not free but I had a friend who did an internship with Procter and gamble. He didn't have a salary but he did it to build a career. An 18 year old kid reporting to rookie ball is making the same choice.

We choose. If you are not happy, choose differently.

And like I stated earlier, at the age we are talking about here many, many people take a step back to move forward and into a career - internships, PA's, entry level sales rep's, etc.

 

btw, i should have said that i think unpaid internships are bogus as well. everybody should be paid at least minimum wage for their labor, even if it's not market value. also, i think minimum wage is bullshit. i think it should be living wage. i'm sick and tired of the american workforce being treated as an infinite resource with no value. so, i'll assume that we're coming from completely opposite perspectives and leave it at that.

[AngelsLakersFan]

31 minutes ago, ukyah said:

 

btw, i should have said that i think unpaid internships are bogus as well. everybody should be paid at least minimum wage for their labor, even if it's not market value. also, i think minimum wage is bullshit. i think it should be living wage. i'm sick and tired of the american workforce being treated as an infinite resource with no value. so, i'll assume that we're coming from completely opposite perspectives and leave it at that.

It's funny because I actually really dislike minimum wage laws, but I abhor cronyism even more.

[Dtwncbad]

3 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

It seems that everyone on here taking this position was abused by an employer earlier in their career and now justifies it to themselves by saying it built character and therefore everyone should experience it.

Where did I ever say I was abused by an employer?

The reality is I took a couple of positions that were, in my opinion, strongly in my favor (in terms of the experience I needed) and when I got what I needed (and could not really benefit any more by staying) I bailed and the next person who wanted that experience got the gig and was thrilled.

There is zero “abuse” in this.  Both parties get what they want.  Willingly.

 

[ukyah]

55 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

Your response is total bullshit and personal. You don't know me or what I stand for so back the fuck off. As for political perspectives I think you would probably be surprised. And if you had read this thread you would know I said we should have a minimum wage set above the poverty line.

I just think it’s ok to be aggressive when you’re young. Do what the system allows to get into the room. Take chances. And that’s what the Milb players are doing. They have a choice. 

i didn't say anything about you and i made an effort to make sure i wasn't offensive. so, fucking relax. 

i expressed my opinion and the only thing i said about your opinion was that we are on opposite sides of the spectrum on that topic, which is self evident and not offensive.

 

[Lou]

3 minutes ago, ukyah said:

i didn't say anything about you and i made an effort to make sure i wasn't offensive. so, fucking relax. 

i expressed my opinion and the only thing i said about your opinion was that we are on opposite sides of the spectrum on that topic, which is self evident and not offensive.

 

He told me to do the same thing yesterday.

We should start a club. 

[Lou]

8 hours ago, Lou said:

Are signing bonuses included in the "not being paid minimum wage" contention?

Never received an answer to this question.

[Blarg]

11 hours ago, Blarg said:

What is not included in this pay argument is the draft bonus.

We should start a club.

[Lou]

7 minutes ago, Blarg said:

We should start a club.

Only if the Back the Fuck Up Club doesn't work out. 

[ukyah]

i love how emotional this thread about minor leaguers has gotten. i know, ultimately, it's a discussion about a larger issue in america, but daaaamn some of you mf'ers get downright menstrual about baseball. if ever there was a clear sign how desperate angel fans are for a "tension release", this thread is it. definitely the stripling/pederson thread too. that one was like being inside the mind of a stalker.

[ukyah]

10 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

I think you are creating your own narrative. For what purpose I neither know nor care.

ok dude, whatever.

[Stradling]

12 hours ago, Lou said:

He told me to do the same thing yesterday.

We should start a club. 

IP will join. 

[Dtwncbad]

11 hours ago, Lou said:

Only if the Back the Fuck Up Club doesn't work out. 

The first rule of Back The Fuck Up Club is. . . 

[Jeff Fletcher]

19 hours ago, Lou said:

Right. So you think they should be paid at least minimum wage, which I agree with.

How do you feel about Arte paying them only what he is contractually obligated to pay? (Which is the discussion topic)

I think there are a couple questionable elements to that (namely how do they decide what a guy was “supposed to be” paid, and did they communicate clearly to the players what the plan was) but in the big picture I don’t think too many guys were negatively affected. I think the vast majority of players got $400 a week all season just as they expected. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

I am not even going to go back and figure out who brought up this point, but its a fair point that the “minimum wage” is something that varies by state, so it’s hard to use that as a real barometer. 
 

I guess then I would just like to see minor league players negotiate their own minimum salary (as major leaguers do) and have it be more in line with supply-and-demand for the service they provide. 
 

Or at least give them a little more freedom, like limiting the number who are under control every year. Say you can protect your top 40 or 50 minor leaguers, but all the rest of them are free each year to seek employment with any organization they want. Then there would be a little more of a free market affect.

[kevinb]

43 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I am not even going to go back and figure out who brought up this point, but its a fair point that the “minimum wage” is something that varies by state, so it’s hard to use that as a real barometer. 
 

I guess then I would just like to see minor league players negotiate their own minimum salary (as major leaguers do) and have it be more in line with supply-and-demand for the service they provide. 
 

Or at least give them a little more freedom, like limiting the number who are under control every year. Say you can protect your top 40 or 50 minor leaguers, but all the rest of them are free each year to seek employment with any organization they want. Then there would be a little more of a free market affect.

Exactly more negotiation power. The only reason the owners don't is because they can't control their own behaviors. If there was a true free market these players in the minors would be making much more than they are now. I don't think they should even be able to protect 40 or 50.  Let each player negotiate their contract terms individually. If they come to some agreement where it is a 5 or 6 year term so be it, if it's just one year than that's fine to. People who argue against that I don't understand. I don't understand how anyone would disagree with that thinking. Unless they are truly against the players making money for their skill sets. 

[ettin]

The other, more pertinent, argument, to me, is the idea that MLB teams should want to set some minimum standard to develop these Minor League players, who represent the future of their respective teams, by offering physical and mental regimens to maximize mind and body.

Physical trainers, nutritionists, science-based kinematics assistance, a livable wage (the thrust of this thread) so that the Minor Leaguer can devote 100% of their time to being the best baseball player they can be doesn't seem like to much of a stretch for any baseball team to provide, considering the potential payoff of developing a small percentage of those prospects into useful Major League Baseball players.

Finding an investment level that makes sense should be a goal for MLB teams. They should be investing dollars in the right manner to minimize the odds that a prospect flames out of baseball and improve the odds they contribute at the Major League level. Not sure what that investment level is but science and economics are capable of proving it out.

[kevinb]

57 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

So how would your plan work? Do you still want to get rid of the draft? Are all other players outside of the 40 or 50 that are protected free agents every year? And the players negotiating their own number of years and salary when they come out of College and High School? If there is no maximum in years and salary does that mean there is no minimum either? A true free market.

Show us the Kevinb minor league free market plan. I am truly curious to see it because apparently you have put a great deal of thought into this topic.

You’re so caught up in your own ideas you’re not actually reading what I’m saying. 
 

There can still be a draft. But then there should be some items in place that you’re getting a bump from what last year pick at that spot got because it’s not truly a free market if you can only negotiate with one team said team could just say here’s $5 you have to take it. Also I’d say cap the number of rounds to 7-10 similar to the NFL draft. Everything after that teams can pay whatever they want for who ever they want. Let minor league free agents be just that free agents and let the bidding process be what it will be. 
 

But if you truly want a free market and I believe strongly in a free market place. Then you get rid of the draft all together. You build in a starting date of when players can be signed by major league clubs. You do it that way. Let players negotiate contracts. If they all want one year deals great if they all want 10 year deals also great. Clubs can only have a maximum of 3 minor league teams and each team can only have the maximum number of players a ML team can have. I know you think only the Yankees and Dodgers would sign people. But you’d be wrong. Players can choose where to sign while negotiating just like major league free agents do. 
 

Further more you would get rid of baseballs insane arbitration process and controlling these guys for a decade plus. Once you have someone under contract. They can choose to re sign or add years. But if they don’t and they want to be a free agent once their deal they agreed upon runs out then so be it they can be truly free agents at 19 or 21 or whatever age. Some will choose longer term deals for the security some will choose shorter term deals and bet on themselves. A free market with no forced lower salaried players would be incredible. 
 

I want to see owners players etc make the most money they can and believe a truly free market will let that happen. No salary cap no salary floor. No soft luxury cap either. Truly free. 

[tdawg87]

19 hours ago, Blarg said:

We should start a club.

Call it the Gold Star Club.

[kevinb]

57 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

Are you sure you're not a Yankees fan...

Nope

Let me ask you two questions? Do you think the minor leaguers would be paid more if it was a free market? Do you think spending unlimited cash in free agency would win someone a championship every year?

 

[kevinb]

28 minutes ago, Game 6 said:

I think if Milb was a real free market it would be utter Chaos and the result would be the top prospects would reap the benefits and the rest of the prospects would get screwed because they have no leverage. And yes it would further divide the large market and small market teams ultimately the product on the field would suffer, it already is but it would decline more rapidly. I think MLB should be moving closer to an NFL or NBA model of ownership not further from it.

I think if you really want to help the MiLB players then you should be in favor of a union for them. Which is the opposite of what you are proposing. Just my opinion.

I agree they should be more like the NFL with the draft. But if you want a complete free market I believe that would be best. There’s more parity in MLB then NBA or the NFL with a more free market. But that’s beside the point. The NFL is the gold standard with the draft and how they do things. Especially with having an extra year for first rounders. The control MLB has over their prospects of 10 plus years is pretty ridiculous. I do think MLB and the players should have a revenue split agreed upon. The way wages have moved in the last 20 years in the MLB have been mind boggling. There’s some sort of control or collusion going on in the market. A Rod signed his huge deal in 2001 and we’ve barely surpassed it with a handful of people and its 2020. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

19 hours ago, Game 6 said:

Have the MiLB players ever tried to unionize? Could they pull it off? It seems like creating a union is the way to get some of these things done.

They are trying right now