It's possible the Angels pitching situation isn't as dire as we make it to be...

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, case said:

This honestly sounds like a battered wife sticking up for her husband.  "he's not so bad, he only beats me when he drinks" and "i think he wants to change"   It's going to be a long season if we have to count on all these guys turning it around in one off season.

Need more clarification here. Are you referring to the night they call the Police, or the few days after when their sister asks? Or when they change their story in court?

[hangin n wangin]

So stupid that we should have Skaggs right now. With him in the rotation it would have helped a good amount.

[Docwaukee]

6 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I believe now is the time to make a trade for a top tier pitcher ... even if it meant trading a couple of top 10 prospects. This is why a good farm is important ... what’s your thoughts  

if we were to do that, I'd hope it would be for someone with more than two years of control.  That would be my main stipulation.  

I wonder if it's worth the risk to take on the Sale contract. 

[Pancake Bear]

46 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

No they didn’t. 
 

Eppler said they could possibly acquire two, and if they did at least one would have to be a trade. 
 

I asked because everyone seems to think they need two more, but the more I’ve been thinking about it, I think they are really shooting for one and then maybe if they get a second it’ll be someone with upside or options or who can go to the pen. 
 

Either that or they trade Canning.

Huh. That isn’t really how the article I read struck me, but it can theoretically be read that way. 

Maybe I’m overthinking it, but hearing things like, they’re “definitely not done” and,

”Rendon, though, said part of the reason why he signed was because he was told the Angels are still looking to add more pieces this offseason,”

- Things like that sure don’t sound like they’re just planning on bringing in Dallas “Nobody wanted me last year” Keuchel and a Castro/Maldonado (that’s fine, more isn’t really expected) as their big acquisition. 

Because, I mean, Ohtani, Heaney, and Canning are all incredibly unreliable to go big on innings. Bundy should help on that count, but if your #6 is Patrick Sandoval or Jaime Barria, that’s a rotation that is well below average.

Now, on the other hand, since Eppler said Canning wasn’t even supposed to be in the majors last year, at least not nearly as early and often as he was, it seems odd that he’d be already penciled in for a guaranteed spot. Obviously there will be injuries and he’ll undoubtedly be the first guy up if that happens, but I feel a lot better about him as #6 than an every fifth day guy.

 Maybe this is 2013 all over again and they’re just looking at the rotation and going, 

I just find that difficult to believe based on the statements made above. 

Yes, the rotation will be better regardless, even with one more addition - assuming it isn’t another Harvey/Cahill - and yes one more guy won’t make a gigantic difference, and they could be waiting till the deadline to see where they are and save a trade until then. 

It just would feel like they’re doing the all-in half-ass. Again. 

I just feel like we’ve been here before and it doesn’t end well. 

[Troll Daddy]

26 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

if we were to do that, I'd hope it would be for someone with more than two years of control.  That would be my main stipulation.  

I wonder if it's worth the risk to take on the Sale contract. 

No, I would go young with a few years of control. I do think Sale will bounce back next season ... but to expensive to find out. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

I believe now is the time to make a trade for a top tier pitcher ... even if it meant trading a couple of top 10 prospects. This is why a good farm is important ... what’s your thoughts  

That depends which prospects and for which player. You can’t answer this question without specifics. 
 

I think the best pitcher they could possibly acquire is Syndergaard, but I am not sure there’s a way to do that without trading Adell. I even thought about a combo of Marsh and Canning, but I don’t think even that works since Canning finished last year hurt. The Mets would need to feel they were better off after the trade and I’m not sure that’s possible. 
 

Maybe what the Kluber talks demonstrated is the Angels traceable assets aren’t as attractive as they thought. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 hours ago, Pancake Bear said:

Huh. That isn’t really how the article I read struck me, but it can theoretically be read that way

You gotta remember, Eppler almost never paints himself into a corner with anything definitive. It’s always “possibly” or “could” or “maybe” or “we’ll be looking.”

Back at the GM Meetings he said “we’d like to add two pitchers” and “ideally two” and stuff like that. 
 

Then they got Bundy. He’s one. 
 

Everyone had their hearts set on two top pitchers, but maybe that was never realistic. When everyone, including me, asked about two more after Bundy, he’s been pretty cautious with a lot of maybes and possiblys. 
 

So at this point my best guess is they get Keuchel. They obviously need one pretty good pitcher and all signs point to him as the most likely option. 
 

After that, I suspect they’ll be opportunistic, as Eppler says. If they can get a good deal, they’ll take it. Maybe Teheran falls in their lap for $6M when he’s not on the list now because he wants $12M. Maybe someone’s optionable pitcher (Mahle) becomes available. Or maybe someone shows an interest in Heaney and they can trade him and replace him with a Ray or Quintana type. 
 

I also think they would have entertained two top pitchers if they’d gotten Cole or Strasburg, but once they were gone and they signed Rendon, that ship sailed. 

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Or maybe someone shows an interest in Heaney and they can trade him and replace him with a Ray or Quintana type. 

please

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

42 minutes ago, Jay said:

please

 

Honestly, if they do get a Ray or Quintana, either of those teams may take Heaney back if packaged with a prospect. Heaney would immediately replace Ray or Quintana in the rotation, with an extra year of control and half the cost. He’s not as good, obviously, so the prospect would make up the lost value. 
 

And I should have added Boyd’s name to the previous post about possible second pitcher additions. He’s on a bad team so it’s easier to make a trade. You can even overpay in terms of lower level prospects, as opposed to a Syndergaard, where you’ve got make their major league team better immediately. 

[totdprods]

14 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Honestly, if they do get a Ray or Quintana, either of those teams may take Heaney back if packaged with a prospect. Heaney would immediately replace Ray or Quintana in the rotation, with an extra year of control and half the cost. He’s not as good, obviously, so the prospect would make up the lost value. 
 

And I should have added Boyd’s name to the previous post about possible second pitcher additions. He’s on a bad team so it’s easier to make a trade. You can even overpay in terms of lower level prospects, as opposed to a Syndergaard, where you’ve got make their major league team better immediately. 

I mentioned a Heaney to Cubs deal early in winter as a way to get a more durable/better arm, and still think it has some merit. Saves the Angels $5m in the process off whomever they acquire as well...but it doesn’t add to the rotation, so there’d need to be other moves still, or part of a larger deal perhaps involving Contreras.

Here’s an interesting thought...Heaney for Quintana and Lester? Lester would have to waive his NTC but he came to Chicago by way of Maddon. He’s average these days, but the definition of durability. Angels absorb ~$30m (not incl. Lester’s $10m ‘21 buyout), but both arms are here only for one year.

Cubs immediately get a cheap arm to replace one of the ones lost and free up enough ‘20 salary to address needs at 2B and OF in a FA market deep with one-year value options. Maybe the Angels kick in Barria/Peters to give them another SP, and the Cubs eat some cash in the deal, like the $10m buyout, so the Halos can still add a catcher.

Angels immediately add 60 GS/350 IP of 4.00 ERA pitching, without any long-term commitments or major prospects given up, allowing them to pursue other options midseason or next winter.

And totally agree on the Boyd thinking. The Angels could repeat the Bundy trade and offer more quantity than quality from our lower-level OFs and upper-level infielders, maybe some low-level arms sprinkled in. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by totdprods

[Jeff Fletcher]

19 minutes ago, totdprods said:

mentioned a Heaney to Cubs deal early in winter as a way to get a more durable/better arm

The thing with trading Heaney it would mostly be because of his salary and lack of options.

All of this is assuming a Keuchel/Ryu acquisition...

They’d then have 5, including Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Bundy. They already have ample options for the 6th, who needs to be optionable since he won’t start that much (Sandoval, Suarez, Barría).

Sure, you can add a non-optionable 6th (like Ray or Teheran) to that and just assume someone will be hurt. But that costs a lot of money and/or prospects and potentially sacrifices an opportunity for Canning. 

So if you’re gonna do that, the best route is probably to move Heaney. You’ve still improved by replacing Heaney with someone better than him, but you also stay flexible by preserving Canning’s opportunity and having optionable pieces. 

Another hypothetical.... Sign Keuchel. Get Boyd from Tigers for Heaney, Marsh and Yan. Now you have Keuchel, Ohtani, Boyd, Canning, Bundy (Sandoval, Suarez, Barría). 
 

You may be able to do something similar with Gray. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Jeff Fletcher

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

Is Matz from the Mets a good pitcher to target? Was reading online that he might be the odd man out there with the signings of Wacha and Porcello. 

[wopphil]

3 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The thing with trading Heaney is the other team wouldn’t take him because they think he’s good. It would be sort of a condition of getting a better prospect or prospects back from the Angels. Sort of like a half version of the Cozart deal.

All of this is assuming a Keuchel/Ryu acquisition...

They’d then have 5, including Ohtani, Heaney, Canning, Bundy. They already have ample options for the 6th, who needs to be optionable since he won’t start that much (Sandoval, Suarez, Barría).

Sure, you can add a non-optionable 6th (like Ray or Teheran) to that and just assume someone will be hurt. But that costs a lot of money and/or prospects and potentially sacrifices an opportunity for Canning. 

So if you’re gonna do that, the best route is probably to move Heaney. You’ve still improved by replacing Heaney with someone better than him, but you also stay flexible by preserving Canning’s opportunity and having optionable pieces. 

Another hypothetical.... Sign Keuchel. Get Boyd from Tigers for Heaney, Marsh and Yan. Now you have Keuchel, Ohtani, Boyd, Canning, Bundy (Sandoval, Suarez, Barría). 
 

You may be able to do something similar with Gray. 

I am not saying you are wrong, but I don't like the approach. The team needs 6 bona fide major league pitchers. Trading away Heaney in a deal kills any depth. Why not sign a Keuchel, then trade for a Boyd/Gray, while hanging onto Heaney. The money should work.

[Stradling]

If I had to give up Marsh I would rather have Gray even with one less year of control.  I just think Marsh is going to be someone we regret trading as soon as 2021

[Second Base]

I honestly do not understand the Boyd hype for the life of me. 

[hangin n wangin]

3 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I honestly do not understand the Boyd hype for the life of me. 

Flashes of good stuff, nothing more. That could be said about a ton of pitchers. Boyd had a 4.5 ERA and pitched half of his games in Detroit. Meh.

[Second Base]

3 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

Flashes of good stuff, nothing more. That could be said about a ton of pitchers. Boyd had a 4.5 ERA and pitched half of his games in Detroit. Meh.

Heaney flashes good stuff too. As does Sandoval and Suarez. If an upper 4's ERA and lots of K's across 160+ innings is all they're looking for, then just throw Sandoval or Suarez out there after Callaway tweaks their approach little bit.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Second Base

[Turd Ferguson]

Let's just load up the pen. Sign Betances, sign/trade for another couple bullpen arms. Create a ton of bullpen depth and try to turn it into a 5/6 inning game. Explore a SP trade closer to the deadline.

[Jeff Fletcher]

50 minutes ago, wopphil said:

I am not saying you are wrong, but I don't like the approach. The team needs 6 bona fide major league pitchers. Trading away Heaney in a deal kills any depth. Why not sign a Keuchel, then trade for a Boyd/Gray, while hanging onto Heaney. The money should work.

They could do that, too. I don’t think they want to have Canning in AAA, but I guess you can assume someone will be hurt. 

[Jay]

10 minutes ago, Turd Ferguson said:

Let's just load up the pen. Sign Betances, sign/trade for another couple bullpen arms. Create a ton of bullpen depth and try to turn it into a 5/6 inning game. Explore a SP trade closer to the deadline.

Yes we need more openers.

[wopphil]

29 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They could do that, too. I don’t think they want to have Canning in AAA, but I guess you can assume someone will be hurt. 

I am assuming multiple people will be injured at any given time, and multiple people will be on innings limits.

[HaloMilliVanilli]

I was interested in who the Atlanta Braves constructed their pitching staff with last season in winning 97 games. 

Julio Teheran (33 starts, 174 innings, 3.81), Mike Soroka (29 starts, 174 innings, 2.68), Max Fried (30 starts, 165 innings, 4.02), Mike Foltynewicz (21 starts, 117 innings, 4.54), Dallas Keuchel (19 starts, 112 innings, 3.75), Kevin Gausman (16 starts, 80 innings, 6.19) and 3-4 other guys getting 4 starts each.  

I think we could construct a pretty similar rotation fairly easily.  Signing Keuchel duplicates Teheran, our Soroka is getting Ohtani back (although with likely fewer innings), signing Teheran matches Fried, Canning could be Foltynewicz, Bundy could easily give you Keuchel innings + with likely higher ERA, Heaney is an easily better Gausman.  And that doesn't even consider innings/starts from Sandoval, Barria, Suarez.

This is just considering we do something like signing Keuchel and Teheran.  I think Eppler has confidence that he can field a competitive pitching staff and is waiting for a better deal to present itself, either in FA or trade.  Patience please.

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

1 minute ago, HaloMilliVanilli said:

I was interested in who the Atlanta Braves constructed their pitching staff with last season in winning 97 games. 

Julio Teheran (33 starts, 174 innings, 3.81), Mike Soroka (29 starts, 174 innings, 2.68), Max Fried (30 starts, 165 innings, 4.02), Mike Foltynewicz (21 starts, 117 innings, 4.54), Dallas Keuchel (19 starts, 112 innings, 3.75), Kevin Gausman (16 starts, 80 innings, 6.19) and 3-4 other guys getting 4 starts each.  

I think we could construct a pretty similar rotation fairly easily.  Signing Keuchel duplicates Teheran, our Soroka is getting Ohtani back (although with likely fewer innings), signing Teheran matches Fried, Canning could be Foltynewicz, Bundy could easily give you Keuchel innings + with likely higher ERA, Heaney is an easily better Gausman.  And that doesn't even consider innings/starts from Sandoval, Barria, Suarez.

...wouldn't signing Keuchel duplicate Keuchel...and signing Teheran duplicate...Teheran?

[HaloMilliVanilli]

The above makes me like the idea of fortifying our offense with another piece, also.

[HaloMilliVanilli]

3 minutes ago, Angels_Make_Me_Drink said:

...wouldn't signing Keuchel duplicate Keuchel...and signing Teheran duplicate...Teheran?

No, man.  7....7 is the number!