Is Simmons the best overall SS in baseball?

[jordan]

9 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

I think all of us who voted no love Simmons and are very stoked he's here.  He's the second best position player we have.  If Simmons can OPS 900+ for the whole year and be the best defensive player in baseball, then I will change my vote to a yes.  He's at that mark right now.  However, his previous career high is 752 (set last year), so if I am using that mark, then I'd say no, he is not.

6 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Correa has a 400 game track record (Since he came into the league) of hitting at a 138 OPS+ clip. Simba was at 102 last year and is at 155 this year. He's showing signs of being a better hitter but has to do it for more than 30 games to be in this discussion

Ok fair enough.  I'll take my Angels' goggles off and agree that Simmons has to prove his offensive improvements by finishing the season close to wear he currently stands in order to be considered the best or tied with the best SS. 

[Warfarin]

What I'll say is pretty cool is the offensive improvements Simba has made since he's been here.  Last year, he kept his K rate about the same while adding some more power to his game (ISO went from 0.085 to 0.143, while his K rate went from 7.9% to 10.4%).

This year, his K rate has gone down a bit (to 6.8%) while his ISO has gone even higher (0.167).  Some of his current production is probably due to some good luck (BABIP at 0.361), but nevertheless, the offensive growth he has been showing is really awesome.

[Angelsjunky]

Assuming he's going to continue hitting .350 is like assuming Mookie is going to continue slugging .800. Small sample size.

That said, Andrelton has been improving with the bat for several years in a row now. I think he could be a legit .300 hitter - maybe .300/.350/.450, which with his defense makes him a 6 WAR player: a bonafide star by any measure.

But consider: Seager and Lindor were both 6 WAR players last year, and presumably have more room to grow. Correa was at 5 WAR, but in 109 games. Machado is having a rebound year. Andrelton remains #5 on the list, due to age and overall value (Didi is coming back down to earth and not this good). But as the 5th best overall shortstop, he's probably one of the 20th best overall position players in the game right now. I'll gladly take that.

[Warfarin]

18 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Assuming he's going to continue hitting .350 is like assuming Mookie is going to continue slugging .800. Small sample size.

That said, Andrelton has been improving with the bat for several years in a row now. I think he could be a legit .300 hitter - maybe .300/.350/.450, which with his defense makes him a 6 WAR player: a bonafide star by any measure.

But consider: Seager and Lindor were both 6 WAR players last year, and presumably have more room to grow. Correa was at 5 WAR, but in 109 games. Machado is having a rebound year. Andrelton remains #5 on the list, due to age and overall value (Didi is coming back down to earth and not this good). But as the 5th best overall shortstop, he's probably one of the 20th best overall position players in the game right now. I'll gladly take that.

That's an excellent point.  While he may not be the best shortstop, having the 20th most valuable position player (to go along with the #1 player in the game) is a great, great place for us to be.

And, of note, he is currently tied for 8th in fWAR for position players (he is tied with Judge and Machado - not bad company!).  

[krAbs]

So, the "is SImmons the best" question is really interesting. Typically, I would say that this is SPECIFICALLY what WAR is meant to measure - who is the best overall player at x position. But, even using WAR, we are in a weird place. According to bWAR, Simmons was the best SS in baseball through 2017, and has been the best SS in 2018 (though, its early, and these rankings are VERY volatile - this is true at the time of me writing this, but may not be tomorrow). Based on these numbers, it would be hard to make the argument that anyone at the position is better then him. Last year, Correa was the only other SS in the top 10, and he came in .8 bWAR below Simmons. BUT. Baseball reference really likes defense, and they weight it more heavily than Fangraphs. As a result, last year by fWAR, Simmons is tied with Correa for #3 at 5.1, and behind Seager and Lindor (both at 5.9). This year, he is again tied for 3rd, this time with Machado at 1.8, just behind Lindor (1.9), and well behind Didi (2.3).

So - the Simmons question boils down to a few basic beliefs. 1. is his uptick in hitting for real? The metrics suggest that probably it is, but he has certainly not been hitting as long as a lot of other guys out there. 2. How heavily do you weight his defense? Two defensible methods rank him very differently based on this. Either way, he is CERTAINLY top 5. But, if you weigh his defense heavily (which, imo, the eye test says you should), then he is comfortably the best SS in baseball. 3. Simmons is about 4 years older than a lot of high end SS. Moving forward, its very possible that he will soon start slipping down the ranks. So, this may force his value down projecting forward.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

13 hours ago, Warfarin said:

Didi Gregorious' incredible start has vaulted him into the #1 spot in terms of WAR for SSs.  Manny Machado is now playing SS as opposed to 3B, so he certainly now enters that conversation as well. 

ESPN uses baseball reference WAR to an extra decimal place and Simmons is actually higher than Didi.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/type/seasonal/year/2018

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

1 hour ago, Griffey's Corner said:

If he keeps hitting .350 than yes. He is the best defensive SS in the game. He plays in a pitchers park with not a lot of offensive support.

then yes

[Ohtaniland]

Simmons has been nothing short of terrific but I want to see how terrific he and this team is in a post season situation. He’s fun to watch but I really don’t give a hoot if you’re a 1-2-3-10 war player if you sh*t the bed in a wild card game and go home. 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

12 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

He's really good and having a great year, but he's not as good as Correa, Lindor or Seager. 

Too soon to say how much of Didi's performance will stick.

Is Machado back to SS? If so, he's better.

So Andrelton is somewhere in the 4-6 range, depending.

 

Simmons last year WAR  was 7.14, he is on a better start this year...

This year bWAR 2.0 so far.

[Dick B Back]

1 hour ago, jordan said:

So is a .350 AVG the main qualifier to be the top SS?  I mean I listed quite a few things that he does so much better than other SS.  I think it's highly unlikely he continues hitting at a .350 clip, but even a .280 avg at season's end with all that he does, makes him the best. 

A .280 average will make him the best defensive shortstop.

[Taylor]

1 hour ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Correa has a 400 game track record (Since he came into the league) of hitting at a 138 OPS+ clip. Simba was at 102 last year and is at 155 this year. He's showing signs of being a better hitter but has to do it for more than 30 games to be in this discussion

I'm not asking this to disagree, but just because I'm ignorant and don't know much about Correa. How is his defense?

[krAbs]

10 minutes ago, Taylor said:

I'm not asking this to disagree, but just because I'm ignorant and don't know much about Correa. How is his defense?

Quick scan of fangraphs and baseball reference, he sounds like a fairly typical plus defender. For sure not a liability defensively, occasionally going to make some good plays, but not really the kind of guy who gets articles about how good he is on defense.

[Chuck]

I voted YES. 

Correa hits more home runs, but strikes out more and he doesn't steal as many bases as Simba.

Simba is better defensively. 

[Chuck]

I also agree with @Glen that Simba should bat 3rd and we should either move Upton down to cleanup and Pujols to 5th, or swap Upton and Simba's spots in the order. 

 

[nate]

There are a few really great SS in MLB right now.  Simmons, Correa, Lindor and Didi.  Not to mention Machado who is a SS playing at 3b.

Hard to say who is the best but I can say that Simmons is my favorite Angel outside of Mike Trout.  He is fun as hell to watch play the game, his defense is off the charts and his offense this season has been outstanding.

[Griffey's Corner]

We have all seen Simmons play on a daily basis. If we can all agree that defensively Simmons at shortstop vs. a average fielding SS is the difference between negating a couple of singles every week. If you extrapolate that back into offensive numbers than the difference between Simmons and most shortstops is an extra 2 hits a week which over the course of a whole season would make his .285 batting average = a .385 batting average. So if Simmons was just average defensively but hitting at a .385 clip than the national media would be proclaiming what we already know and that is he is one of the best players in the game. The fact that he is hitting .350 so far this year is just a bonus. It is why Eppler was so high on him in the first place.

And this really does not factor it helps pitchers get out of tight jams, lessens there pitch counts and gives them more confidence to attack the strike zone with an all world SS behind you. We cannot even quantify all of that.

[Angel Oracle]

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck the Cards' DeJong was rated ahead of Simmons in overall play by MLB Network.

This Simmons should be in the early AL MVP discussions (2.1 WAR already).

[Dick B Back]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

I'm still trying to figure out how the heck the Cards' DeJong was rated ahead of Simmons in overall play by MLB Network.

Probably because he hit 25 HRs and an .850 OPS in less than 110 games as a rookie. Chicks dig the long ball.

[greginpsca]

15 hours ago, Warfarin said:

Man, this is a tough question, but I gotta say no, he is not.  Keep in mind we are truly in the golden era of shortstops.  There are a ton of incredible ones right now.  Correa, Seager, Lindor have widely been considered the top 3 entering this year.  Didi Gregorious' incredible start has vaulted him into the #1 spot in terms of WAR for SSs.  Manny Machado is now playing SS as opposed to 3B, so he certainly now enters that conversation as well.

It's ridiculous how many talented SSs are in the league currently.  Simmons is one of the very best, and certainly the best defensive player in baseball, but it's a bit hard to say he's the #1 overall shortstop in baseball IMO.

The fact that Simmons has 4 errors already this season, many will claim there are better defensive ss's.  Personally, i have always thought he is the best glove in baseball.

[AngelsLakersFan]

Crazy to think that most of us agree that Carlos Correa is the best shortstop in baseball, meanwhile there are 4 AL shortstops in the top 12 in fWAR, and none of them are named Carlos Correa.

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Crazy to think that most of us agree that Carlos Correa is the best shortstop and baseball, meanwhile there are 4 AL shortstops in the top 12 in fWAR, and none of them are named Carlos Correa.

[Dick B Back]

My choice would be the current AL player of the week.

[ten ocho recon scout]

16 hours ago, Warfarin said:

Man, this is a tough question, but I gotta say no, he is not.  Keep in mind we are truly in the golden era of shortstops.  There are a ton of incredible ones right now.  Correa, Seager, Lindor have widely been considered the top 3 entering this year.  Didi Gregorious' incredible start has vaulted him into the #1 spot in terms of WAR for SSs.  Manny Machado is now playing SS as opposed to 3B, so he certainly now enters that conversation as well.

It's ridiculous how many talented SSs are in the league currently.  Simmons is one of the very best, and certainly the best defensive player in baseball, but it's a bit hard to say he's the #1 overall shortstop in baseball IMO.

Hes kind of morphed from rey ordonez to jeter (in terms or contact hitter with some pop). Machado, correa and seagar being more of an arod/nomar type...with simmons still having ordonez' defense.

[m0nkey]

2 hours ago, nate said:

There are a few really great SS in MLB right now.  Simmons, Correa, Lindor and Didi.  Not to mention Machado who is a SS playing at 3b.

Hard to say who is the best but I can say that Simmons is my favorite Angel outside of Mike Trout.  He is fun as hell to watch play the game, his defense is off the charts and his offense this season has been outstanding.

Machado moved back to SS this year

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, nate said:

There are a few really great SS in MLB right now.  Simmons, Correa, Lindor and Didi.  Not to mention Machado who is a SS playing at 3b.

Hard to say who is the best but I can say that Simmons is my favorite Angel outside of Mike Trout.  He is fun as hell to watch play the game, his defense is off the charts and his offense this season has been outstanding.

Thought I was the only weirdo. Simmons is my guy now. I know trout is god, way better player. But i always dig on the guys who no one else is talking about because someone is way better.and besides AW.com, i dont think simmons is really getting his due.