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Is Simmons the best overall SS in baseball?


Simmons  

76 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Simmons the best overall SS in baseball?



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Totally agree. Simmons is the best defender in baseball at a position where defense is huge. The offense is just a bonus. Simmons has the best defense in baseball & offense is a plus. I cannot think of another SS who has the reverse who is the best offensive player in the game & is also a plus defender. We already have the best offensive player in baseball on the same team in Mike Trout.

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how did we steal him from Atlanta again?

I mean I like the trade when it was made and liked getting the (then) two time gold glove guy --

but he's been consistently better than advertised in ALL phases of the game.

Always been a great SS/ MIF but he's hitting for us, runs the bases well and has great baseball instinct.

Honestly, I thought Trout was AL MVP last year (always a contender) but the MVP of the team was probably Andrelton Simmons.

He's a fabulous ballplayer and fun to watch.

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that Correa guy with Houston is pretty good.........his 200 hit seasons so far are very impressive.

someone mentioned that A. Simmons has four ERRORs charged to him this season at SS.

I remember seeing one of those charged E's on a televised game -- it was on a ball that I don't think any other shortstop would have gotten to...........

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14 hours ago, Warfarin said:

What's interesting is that most of everyone in this thread has said no, but if you look at the polling results, it's basically 75% yes, 25% no.  I guess us contrarians are being more vocal :P

I gave reasons why it's a no, but felt bad clicking the no so I just didn't vote ha. 

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10 hours ago, Griffey's Corner said:

We have all seen Simmons play on a daily basis. If we can all agree that defensively Simmons at shortstop vs. a average fielding SS is the difference between negating a couple of singles every week. If you extrapolate that back into offensive numbers than the difference between Simmons and most shortstops is an extra 2 hits a week which over the course of a whole season would make his .285 batting average = a .385 batting average. So if Simmons was just average defensively but hitting at a .385 clip than the national media would be proclaiming what we already know and that is he is one of the best players in the game. The fact that he is hitting .350 so far this year is just a bonus. It is why Eppler was so high on him in the first place.

And this really does not factor it helps pitchers get out of tight jams, lessens there pitch counts and gives them more confidence to attack the strike zone with an all world SS behind you. We cannot even quantify all of that.

Despite generally understanding the inputs for WAR, I'd never thought of taking the defense and literally adding it back to the offensive slash line. Pretty interesting way of looking at it. 

A few things I'll point out (directed generally to the board, not to you GC), since I'm not convinced he's #1, but pretty darn close:

1) Those other shortstops ranked above him are pretty damn good defensively, too. We're not comparing his defense to the average shortstop, we're comparing among the best in game. Machado is only one that is likely only average at D at short. No Jeet clones here. 

2) As far as weighting of defense, my only concern is that the "fly ball revolution," while likely overstated, might continue and I'd think if there is a single position on the field that'd lose the most value from less opportunities, it'd be SS. Doesn't mean it won't be important, just possibly less so than in the past. 

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10 hours ago, 101halo said:

Despite generally understanding the inputs for WAR, I'd never thought of taking the defense and literally adding it back to the offensive slash line. Pretty interesting way of looking at it. 

A few things I'll point out (directed generally to the board, not to you GC), since I'm not convinced he's #1, but pretty darn close:

1) Those other shortstops ranked above him are pretty damn good defensively, too. We're not comparing his defense to the average shortstop, we're comparing among the best in game. Machado is only one that is likely only average at D at short. No Jeet clones here. 

2) As far as weighting of defense, my only concern is that the "fly ball revolution," while likely overstated, might continue and I'd think if there is a single position on the field that'd lose the most value from less opportunities, it'd be SS. Doesn't mean it won't be important, just possibly less so than in the past. 

You make some great points. For point #1 I would have to defer to you. I really do not follow any other team other than the Angels.... & ex Angel players.... such as CJ Cron & Peter Bourjos, etc. For point #2 I think some of Simmons greatest plays have been his unbelievable range running into the OF and taking away a bloop single. So to me whether hitters want to hit 5% more in the air than they ever did does not take away from Simmons being a stud and helping the team. 

 

One thing I would like to mention that I do not see brought up is Simmons is such a relentless warrior. He wants to win.... badly. He is always trying to throw behind runners. he is always thinking one step ahead of everybody else. He is the consummate team player. While it is true that I do not follow these other players and there HR's. I am willing to bet they are more into their personal stats than Simmons. It's not like Simmons cannot hit HR's.... I think he hit 17 not so long ago. And again I would have to defer but are these other SS's that good defensively? Because to me an average MLB SS is supposed to be good with the glove so the average bar is set extremely high.

 

In a nutshell most people think of Ozzie Smith as one of the greatest SS of all time. And other than Simmons does not do backflips and he plays more under the radar playing for the Angels I would just as soon have Simmons out there as Ozzie Smith on defense. And on offense Ozzie Smith was not that good. He did not hit for any power.... only 28 HR's in his career. And a lifetime .262 BA.

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11 hours ago, disarcina said:

that Correa guy with Houston is pretty good.........his 200 hit seasons so far are very impressive.

someone mentioned that A. Simmons has four ERRORs charged to him this season at SS.

I remember seeing one of those charged E's on a televised game -- it was on a ball that I don't think any other shortstop would have gotten to...........

A Simmons error is more likely to come on a play very few normal SS's can make.    His range is ridiculous.  

And as Griffey's Corner said, he does all of the little things with a high baseball IQ.

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On 5/7/2018 at 7:23 AM, zenmaster said:

If he can hit .350 for the year then I'll put him up there with Correa, but for now, Correa gets my vote.

Shortstops and batting average have nothing to do with a players total value. How this thread even wandered drunkenly over to that is beyond me. It's like we are having a discussion in 2002 before Moneyball came out and people discovered stats beyond the back of a bubble gum card.

 

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26 minutes ago, Mark68 said:

He's top five. But #1? A strong case could be made for Correa, Lindor, and Seager.

 

2 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Shortstops and batting average have nothing to do with a players total value. How this thread even wandered drunkenly over to that is beyond me. It's like we are having a discussion in 2002 before Moneyball came out and people discovered stats beyond the back of a bubble gum card.

 

Exactly! If we're talking about building a great fantasy team, sure; look at Correa, Lindor, et al. But as far as real baseball, value to the team, overall player at the shortstop position? Simmons runs away with it, imho.

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4 minutes ago, Pablo said:

 

Exactly! If we're talking about building a great fantasy team, sure; look at Correa, Lindor, et al. But as far as real baseball, value to the team, overall player at the shortstop position? Simmons runs away with it, imho.

Simmons is a great fielder, yes. His hitting has improved, yes. But his hitting is not as good as Correa, Lindor, Seager, or Machado. And his fielding may only be a touch better than Lindor.

FWIW, Fangraphs 2018 team positional power rankings at shortstop have the Angels ranked 5th--behind Houston, Cleveland, the Dodgers, and Orioles. Not a surprise.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2018-positional-power-rankings-shortstop/

I think everybody looks at Simmons--because he's really, really good at what he does--and can't imagine anyone better. I bet you that Astros fans, Indians fans, Dodgers fans, and both Oriole fans feel the same way.

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Simmons came to the Angels with the 'best defender in a generation' tag, with positive comps to Ozzie. Defense is the single most difficult metric to gauge. As someone mentioned, he will get an error on a ball that Correa could only dream of reaching. Because of that, Who's the Best is an argument that will never be proved. To me, you start with who you feel is the best defender; how much separation between number 2 is subjective. But if the guy you pegged as best is outperforming everyone else offensively as well, then for right now, the question is answered.

 

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12 minutes ago, Mark68 said:

Simmons is a great fielder, yes. His hitting has improved, yes. But his hitting is not as good as Correa, Lindor, Seager, or Machado. And his fielding may only be a touch better than Lindor.

FWIW, Fangraphs 2018 team positional power rankings at shortstop have the Angels ranked 5th--behind Houston, Cleveland, the Dodgers, and Orioles. Not a surprise.

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2018-positional-power-rankings-shortstop/

I think everybody looks at Simmons--because he's really, really good at what he does--and can't imagine anyone better. I bet you that Astros fans, Indians fans, Dodgers fans, and both Oriole fans feel the same way.

Fangraphs has also talked about how Correa is the best SS in baseball, and then the next 4 (Simmons included) are virtually identical in value. Baseball Reference reaches a similar conclusion with WAR, except that it has Simmons on top and the next few clustered close together. Again, the difference is how you weight his defense.

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Based on Jay Jaffee's JAWS metric, Simmons has the 57th most cumulative WAR, with 30.6 over 7 years (4.37/year).

As a point of comparison, Fregosi was 21st all-time with 48.7 total over 18 years (2.71/year).

Correa has 18.2 WAR over 4 years (4.55/year).

Lindor has 17.9 WAR over 4 years (4.48/year).

Seager has 13.8 WAR over 4 years (3.45/year).

BTW, these figures include this year.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

 

As you can see, it's really close, but in average WAR, both Correa and Lindor have a slight edge over Simmons.

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11 hours ago, Blarg said:

Shortstops and batting average have nothing to do with a players total value. How this thread even wandered drunkenly over to that is beyond me. It's like we are having a discussion in 2002 before Moneyball came out and people discovered stats beyond the back of a bubble gum card.

 

Funny, I had the same thought, but then converted it to an OBP/SLG gain instead and at least was able to put it into OPS context for understanding the value. Which is why I appreciated the approach, even if I had to take a step most would find really annoying to get there. 

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11 hours ago, artesmustache said:

Simmons is unbelievably good. If Ozzie Smith is a Hall of Famer, then so is Simmons (if he has long career).

It's crazy that we have Trout, Simmons and Ohtani on the same team. All great, exciting players. Too bad we don't have that veteran stud pitcher like a Chuck Finley to anchor the staff. 

I think the hall of fame topic is what best illustrates the point. If Simmons continues this defense and the improved bat for the rest of his prime, he's a HoF lock I'd think. The fact that that still might not make him the best SS in the game is more telling of how insanely good the talent is at the position right now than a knock on Simmons. 

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