New Senate Tax Plan

[red321]

Where did I type lying?

[mtangelsfan]

You are parsing 

[Adam]

I’d be happy if nothing happened other than eliminating the individual mandate

[red321]

10 hours ago, mtangelsfan said:

You are parsing 

I specifically did not use the word lying

[Spirit]

3 minutes ago, red321 said:

I specifically did not use the word lying

 

What's the differences between lying and pushing a false narrative?

 

[Jason]

33 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

What's the differences between lying and pushing a false narrative?

 

Those are just alternative facts

[floplag]

What i find incredibly interesting is that the Dems managed to block everything else the Reps have tried to do, until now...
You can blame the Reps all you want and this is their clusterfuck, but this was lip service opposition at best.  
If my taxes go up a single penny i will vote against every incumbent on both dies of the aisle and the oval office in the next elections. 

[Blarg]

45 minutes ago, Geoff said:

 

What's the differences between lying and pushing a false narrative?

 

ANAHEIMBOB and Calzone.

[red321]

37 minutes ago, floplag said:

What i find incredibly interesting is that the Dems managed to block everything else the Reps have tried to do, until now...
You can blame the Reps all you want and this is their clusterfuck, but this was lip service opposition at best.  
If my taxes go up a single penny i will vote against every incumbent on both dies of the aisle and the oval office in the next elections. 

Reading your post made me think of this video I saw this morning...

You do realize the Senate bill was passed under reconciliation...meaning only 50 votes were required and the Republicans have 52 + Mike Pence? No Democrats voted for this legislation?

 

[Glen]

The democrats blocked it!

[fan_since79]

I still think the Republicans got this mess of a bill passed in order to get something, anything, akin to a legislative 'victory'. Part of the reason for that is the unwillingness of anyone, especially Schumer and company, to compromise and craft a bipartisan law. So we get a complicated, uncertain mess instead of a bill that both parties could live with, albeit with some losses to each.

And yes, they did favor corporate tax cuts and not so much the individual. I can see the virtue of that objection. We'll see if such cuts actually add to economic growth and provide more jobs. Some large companies are already stating they will hire more workers going forward. I think time will tell, and the jury might want to wait before giving a verdict.

 

 

 

[red321]

14 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

I still think the Republicans got this mess of a bill passed in order to get something, anything, akin to a legislative 'victory'. Part of the reason for that is the unwillingness of anyone, especially Schumer and company, to compromise and craft a bipartisan law. So we get a complicated, uncertain mess instead of a bill that both parties could live with, albeit with some losses to each.

And yes, they did favor corporate tax cuts and not so much the individual. I can see the virtue of that objection. We'll see if such cuts actually add to economic growth and provide more jobs. Some large companies are already stating they will hire more workers going forward. I think time will tell, and the jury might want to wait before giving a verdict.

 

 

 

We wonder why we have the government we have...and then we get this both sides bullshit.

The Republicans made it clear this was their bill. They didn't invite Democrats to the table for meaningful discussion, they didn't hold detailed open hearings, or allow scoring...they were handwriting changes to win over Republican Senators up until the minute they were voting. They voted down all Democratic amendments to the legislation.

Compare that to ACA...a year's worth of hearings were had, multiple Republican amendments and changes were made, the original proposal was based on a Republican governor's plan. And even with that, not one Republican voted for it and on top of it stated they would filibuster any additional attempts to amend the legislation after it was passed and issues became apparent.

Seriously...this ability to look at a plate of broccoli and a plate of steaming dog shit and declare...they're the same is unfuckingbelievable.

[Thomas]

30 minutes ago, red321 said:

We wonder why we have the government we have...and then we get this both sides bullshit.

I have to give it to Red. He keeps trying to make this a thing. Persistence through consistent and utter failure is an admirable trait.

[Adam]

Sometimes shit is solid and well structured and sometimes shit resembles jalapeno-infused hot chocolate. 

[Thomas]

Using the food analogy is apt as I'm just imagining a Gordon Ramsey scene.
"Our food isn't dogshit" - Political Side
"Yeah well half of your fucking would be customers are fucking eating the fucking dogshit over the fucking shit you're fucking serving. Fucking." - GR

[floplag]

2 hours ago, red321 said:

Reading your post made me think of this video I saw this morning...

You do realize the Senate bill was passed under reconciliation...meaning only 50 votes were required and the Republicans have 52 + Mike Pence? No Democrats voted for this legislation?

 

Very well aware, it was a purely partisan voting line... but if that was all that matters every vote would have been the same, they were not.  They managed to stop other things, not this one.  
There is an old saying "methinks ye doth protest too much"... basically i'm not buying it.  
You are welcome to believe that the Dems are putting the people ahead of that if you wish but there is literally zero chance you convince me of that regarding ANY politician in either party.  Insult me, whatever, but open your eyes man this is the same shit both parties have been doing my entire lifetime, neither has stopped it, neither has even tried to.  Make it partisan if you wish, i call BS. 

[red321]

32 minutes ago, floplag said:

Very well aware, it was a purely partisan voting line... but if that was all that matters every vote would have been the same, they were not.  They managed to stop other things, not this one.  
There is an old saying "methinks ye doth protest too much"... basically i'm not buying it.  
You are welcome to believe that the Dems are putting the people ahead of that if you wish but there is literally zero chance you convince me of that regarding ANY politician in either party.  Insult me, whatever, but open your eyes man this is the same shit both parties have been doing my entire lifetime, neither has stopped it, neither has even tried to.  Make it partisan if you wish, i call BS. 

Senate rules are very arcane. Most legislation requires 60 votes to begin/end debate. Budget doesn't, and reconciliation process can be used on one item related to the budget within a calendar year. Reconciliation has very strict rules on what can and can't be included and items must be budget related (I think that's the specifics of reconciliation, might be off a touch but that's the gist). Republicans attempted to use reconciliation process to get rid of ACA, and failed when they couldn't get enough Republican votes. When Republicans passed a budget a few weeks ago it allowed them to turn around and use the reconciliation process to for the No Millionaires Left Behind tax giveaway they are currently working on. That's how they were able pass this atrocity.

I have no illusions that the Democrats are perfect, as a Democrat and someone who follows the party closely, there are warts a plenty that go beyond just bad messaging.

But you cannot expect the parties and atmosphere to change if you continuously just throw up your hands and declare everything the same. Why in the world would either party change if they know there are no consequences. The Republicans in the Senate have broken almost every norm the last decade up to and including massive increase of the use of filibuster and stealing supreme court nominee...and they consolidated power while everyone cried about how partisanship was bad. It wasn't bad for them...it was awesome for them.

And this is a prime example...you yourself...this is bullshit...both sides fucked us...ummm...dude...just Republicans passed this...oh...well...both sides suck and you'll never convince me differently.

Edited December 4, 2017 by red321

[floplag]

24 minutes ago, red321 said:

Senate rules are very arcane. Most legislation requires 60 votes to begin/end debate. Budget doesn't, and reconciliation process can be used on one item related to the budget within a calendar year. Reconciliation has very strict rules on what can and can't be included and items must be budget related (I think that's the specifics of reconciliation, might be off a touch but that's the gist). Republicans attempted to use reconciliation process to get rid of ACA, and failed when they couldn't get enough Republican votes. When Republicans passed a budget a few weeks ago it allowed them to turn around and use the reconciliation process to for the No Millionaires Left Behind tax giveaway they are currently working on. That's how they were able pass this atrocity.

I have no illusions that the Democrats are perfect, as a Democrat and someone who follows the party closely, there are warts a plenty that go beyond just bad messaging.

But you cannot expect the parties and atmosphere to change if you continuously just throw up your hands and declare everything the same. Why in the world would either party change if they know there are no consequences. The Republicans in the Senate have broken almost every norm the last decade up to and including massive increase of the use of filibuster and stealing supreme court nominee...and they consolidated power while everyone cried about how partisanship was bad. It wasn't bad for them...it was awesome for them.

And this is a prime example...you yourself...this is bullshit...both sides fucked us...ummm...dude...just Republicans passed this...oh...well...both sides suck and you'll never convince me differently.

This isnt about rules, it isnt about parties, its about what they do behind closed doors versus what they do in the public eye.  
Yes. this is a Rep abortion, and i will vote against every single one of them i can if my taxes go up by so much as a red cent.  
But... i find it hard to believe that the Dems could block literal everything else Trump has wanted to do, but this.   Those 2 things dont add up.  
You are biased, you will never see them as even on par, but hat is all i see, they simply pander to different audiences.   Or in my case as part of the middle class, specifically white middle class, neither give a shit, we are the forgotten demographic.  

[red321]

8 minutes ago, floplag said:

This isnt about rules, it isnt about parties, its about what they do behind closed doors versus what they do in the public eye.  
Yes. this is a Rep abortion, and i will vote against every single one of them i can if my taxes go up by so much as a red cent.  
But... i find it hard to believe that the Dems could block literal everything else Trump has wanted to do, but this.   Those 2 things dont add up.  
You are biased, you will never see them as even on par, but hat is all i see, they simply pander to different audiences.   Or in my case as part of the middle class, specifically white middle class, neither give a shit, we are the forgotten demographic.  

BECAUSE THIS ONLY REQUIRED 50 VOTES...FIVE...ZERO. Republicans have 52 votes in the Senate, plus the tiebreaker.

The ACA repeal failed because...they couldn't get 50 Republican votes, not because of anything the Democrats did (outside of jam phone lines of purple state Senators, and I know they were doing the same thing with the tax bill).

Outside of that, almost all legislation requires 60 votes to begin debate to move forward to a vote.

 

Dude, I'm white middle class as well, so knock off the we're the forgotten demographic. 

[Tank]

2 hours ago, red321 said:

Seriously...this ability to look at a plate of broccoli and a plate of steaming dog shit and declare...they're the same is unfuckingbelievable.

a very colorful analogy, old friend.

 

p.s. i hope i'm not having broccoli for dinner tonight.

[red321]

2 minutes ago, Tank said:

a very colorful analogy, old friend.

 

p.s. i hope i'm not having broccoli for dinner tonight.

p.p.s...me either...gag...broccoli

[tennischmp]

3 hours ago, floplag said:

This isnt about rules, it isnt about parties, its about what they do behind closed doors versus what they do in the public eye.  
Yes. this is a Rep abortion, and i will vote against every single one of them i can if my taxes go up by so much as a red cent.  
But... i find it hard to believe that the Dems could block literal everything else Trump has wanted to do, but this.   Those 2 things dont add up.  
You are biased, you will never see them as even on par, but hat is all i see, they simply pander to different audiences.   Or in my case as part of the middle class, specifically white middle class, neither give a shit, we are the forgotten demographic.  

The Democrats can't do anything to prevent a Republican run Senate and House from passing bills. The ACA repeal didn't pass because of what the Dems did but because that bill it was just a bigger shit of a bill than the tax bill was. 

[red321]

Stephen Moore, advisor to Trump campaign on tax policy...let's the cat out of the proverbial bag 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-campaign-adviser-says-gop-tax-overhaul-death-to-democrats

Stephen Moore, a conservative economist who advised President Donald Trump’s campaign on economic and tax policy, said in an interview published Tuesday that the Republican tax overhaul currently under debate by the House is “death to Democrats.”

“They go after state and local taxes, which weakens public employee unions. They go after university endowments, and universities have become play pens of the left,” Moore told Bloomberg. “And getting rid of the mandate is to eventually dismantle Obamacare.”

[Glen]

But the democrats. Both parties are the same.

[Spirit]

2 minutes ago, Glen said:

Both parties are the same.

 

Agreed