Rosenthal: Might be time for Scioscia to leave

[axalar]

I did the research, the contract is back loaded so to make your premise made on dollars owed, wouldn't it make sense to have you facts straight? Hamilton's salary does not affect the payroll for two more years.

You must be used to FOX News making up numbers for their made up stories.

 

You're arguing over something that really doesn't play into the main context of the article.

[YouthofToday]

Although I understand the call for me to name my anonymous source I will not.

[Lifetime]

of course not.

[m0nkey]

Why would he?

[Jobu]

What's most interesting to me about this topic is that I find myself agreeing with a lot of people I've never agreed with. Huh.

 

My take on the back and forth...

 

"Scioscia has lost the clubhouse!" - I don't think anyone of us can ever know that. There has been rumor and innuendo, but nothing more, and certainly nothing solid. If it's true, then absolutely, Scioscia should go. But there aren't many guys not named Arte and Jerry that can speak to that with much authority. I trust them infinitely more than Trevor Bell or Ken Rosenthal. If the team starts to get hot and become successful, does that mean he "won the clubhouse back"? How did he do it? Flowers? Chocolates?

 

"Scioscia can't manage a bullpen!" - Could he ever? What does that even mean? I can't honestly say that I notice Scioscia's bullpen moves until they blow up, which they've done with great frequency because there's not much talent down there. But somebody has to pitch, and I'd be hard-pressed to say that he's doing things differently than when he had Shields and K-Rod ... it's just not working out. Good performances make managers look smart. The converse is clearly true.

 

"Guys are consistently under-performing! This is on Scioscia and coaching staff!" - This is an interesting point, and I would say that it should absolutely be factored into Scioscia's performance. But it reeks a bit of confirmation bias. Trumbo is a guy who was never a elite prospect coming up, but he has worked himself up to the level of a high-caliber major leaguer. Does Scioscia get any credit for a guy blossoming under his command? Or just negative points when Pujols and Hamilton sh*t the bed for a month? As troubling as this season has been, it's still too early to get complete books on everyone. Again, I trust Jerry to evaluate to what extent coaching has impacted this start.

 

"This team is built to be a playoff contender. No playoffs for 3 years, he's got to go!" - This argument actually has some merit. Sports is success driven and many a great, successful and smart coaches and managers have gotten the axe for not translating any of that to W's. If Scioscia gets canned for no other reason that Arte wants a head to roll, so be it. I'll hardly lose sleep over it, but that certainly isn't anybody's business but Arte's. It's also useful to note that the team still has a winning record over the last 3+  years. It's not the level of success any of us hoped for, but it is still success by objective standards.

 

"This team is lackadaisical/unfocused/unmotivated!" - I see some of this, too. The baserunning mistakes are bothersome, as are the errors. Trout not knowing to slide because Howie was nowhere to be found was particularly galling, and to whatever extent that is related to "lack of focus" is on the manager. His job is to create the environment in which that level of play is not acceptable and I have no problem - if this is actually the case - for him being judged for it. But again, confirmation bias. There are guys out there making good plays and putting together solid ABs almost every night. Does Scioscia get any credit for keeping those guys focused and motivated? Nobody here has any idea if turning over the buffet table, taking a bat to the Gatorade jug, or getting red in the face at some guy would actually make a difference. I'd be willing to bet that its worked just about as often as its failed miserably. But I think everyone knows that is not Scioscia's style, so what's the point in pretending it will happen?

 

Ultimately, I'm not convinced that everyone is attributing to him is really on him. As many have pointed out, at a certain point, players need to perform to their established abilities. I also don't think he should get off the hook for poor play because he has, at one time, been successful or because it's not ALL his fault. All the critical evaluation of his career, present and future, should be left to those who actually have the tools and experience to make those judgments, and I'm thankful that Jerry is in that position.

[RePLAY]

its about damn time you realized I was right.  Its unfortunate you had to agree after you wrote that novel above about Scioscia's feelings and emotions in his marriage with JD.  It almost rivaled the Twilight stories but yours was much more intense.

 

LOL..  I love how you state you didn't miss the boat then go about proving you did.    
 

Tell you what -- yes, you're right,   You got it all figured out.   The only thing wrong with this pitching staff is the manager.  If Bob Melvin were managing the Angels, Joe Blanton would be the early favorite for AL Cy Young.   Ryan Madsen and Sean Burnett would BOTH be 100% and Josh Hamilton's OPS would be eleventy million.

[tdawg87]

Good thing no one did other than the strawman 

 

His entire post was basically saying how the manager doesn't have as big of a role in player performance as some would think. He is absolutely correct.

 

He said that coaches are there to "implement a system" and to see that the system is working according to plan. If that's the case, then unless the Angels' system is to lose and miss the playoffs, then his "system" has failed. Is his game plan being implemented on the field this year? If so, it isn't working. If not, why the f**k are we arguing about why he should be fired?

[Lifetime]

and you said in rebuttal "So if, according to you, the manager doesn't have that big of a role other than "filling out the lineup card", then firing him won't be that big of a deal. 

Why even have managers then?"

 

And JimB said "Exactly.  Managers play a huge role in professional sports.  To deny that is simply laughable."

 

that isn't what he said at all, thus the strawman comment

[tdawg87]

Ok I get it now.

[gurn67]

It seems to the apologists that the 2002-2009 stretch happened because of Scioscia's great managing, but during the 2010-present stretch all he does is make out the lineup card. I guess when the team wins, it's because of Scioscia. When they lose, it's the players..

[tdawg87]

It seems to the apologists that the 2002-2009 stretch happened because of Scioscia's great managing, but during the 2010-present stretch all he does is make out the lineup card. I guess when the team wins, it's because of Scioscia. When they lose, it's the players..

 

But to be fair, the "naysayers" would do the exact opposite. In fact, that's the way pretty much every sports message board works: When the team is playing well, it's all on the players, but when they are sucking, it's all on the coaches.

[ten ocho recon scout]

of course not.

I understand you're take LT, but truth be told, its none of our business. If someone tells one of us something in confidence, the right thing to do wouldn't be naming them and what they said to the public.

[Lifetime]

Then it shouldn't be broadcast. It doesn't lend any credibility but rather detracts from it.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Then it shouldn't be broadcast. It doesn't lend any credibility but rather detracts from it.

well, most of us on here don't use our real names either....I'm sure if YOT was sitting around having a beer w you he wouldn't mind naming people. But on the internet, where the chances of things coming back to bite people is a lot higher, its probably better to remain annonymous.

[Lifetime]

Then again don't divulge it at all. Anyone can say stuff like that and hide behind unnamed sources real or contrived. Say what you want, can't name sources, can't be vetted.

[Angel Oracle]

I would like to know why Dipoto wanted someone as inconsistent as Marmol with a near $10 million price tag for 2013?

Is this the same guy who traded Haren to us for Saunders and two very good pitching prospects?

And regarding my frustrations, it comes down to not wanting to relive the 1970s and 1990s again.

TWO bad decades are enough for anyone to live through.

[AZMike]

But to be fair, the "naysayers" would do the exact opposite. In fact, that's the way pretty much every sports message board works: When the team is playing well, it's all on the players, but when they are sucking, it's all on the coaches.

Every decision the manager makes is wrong. Unless it works. Then it was just lucky.

[Glen]

what is the expected effect of bringing in a new manager?

 

 

Bringing in a new manager.  Perhaps shaking the team up a bit. 

[Mark68]

1) No. I was chatting with a prominent ex-NFL coach over the weekend and he said coaches are there to implement a system and see the system is going according to plan. They aren't nannies, psychiatrists, or marriage counselors, etc. They build strategies and game plans, not hand holding. If players need hand holding they aren't professionals and shouldn't be on the team.

2) OK, so you established 25-40 players are playing bad, what is replacing the coach going to do? A lot of this Sosh fire nonsense is the same people that say make a trade for the sake of it. And yes, if their numbers dictate over a large sample size that they are capable of playing better then you ride it out....it's simple statistics (as in math). And again, looking at math, how is some guy filling out a line up card going to alter these player stats?

3) I don't think anyone thinks Sosh is riding on some 11 year old success....the team got hot like previous WS winners. His record speaks for itself. In the playoffs we beat the teams we should have and lost to the ones that were better barring a missed Josh Paul catch and Fuentes 9th inning fastball to A-Rod.

Congrats on having Angels blood. Hopefully nothing drastic happens that requires regular blood or you may have an issue with finding a donor.

I am by no means suggesting that coaches and managers should be nannies, psychiatrists, or marriage counselors. However, they DO have a function. The pitching coach's job is to get the best performance possible from the pitchers on the staff, and to right any mechanical flaws or do as much as they can to ensure that his charges are physically ready to perform. Obviously, the pitchers also need to be open about anything that could be bothering them physically, so that it can be solved (see Halladay, Roy). Ditto for hitting coaches. They also serve as an additional pair of eyes that can detect any physical or mechanical minutiae that could be affecting performance. This is the manager's job for the whole team, as well as filling out lineup cards, making strategic decisions during the ballgame, but also to make sure that the club, as a whole, is ready to face its opponent that day. The manager does have a lot of say over team philosophy. Sometimes, the team is constructed differently from one year to the next. It is the manager's job to adjust accordingly, just as much as it is the job of the players to adjust to new surroundings, new teammates, or opposing players.

 

Players go through slumps. This is absolutely true, as they are only human beings, not machines. However, when a significant amount of the team is performing at much less than even their career norms simultaneously, this can hardly be a coincidence. And when a significant amount of the team does it during the same time of the year for two years in a row, that should send up a red flag. And as far as your claim that those who want to have Scioscia removed also want to make trades just for the sake of making a trade, one has nothing to do with the other. I will speak for myself and say that any trade I've ever suggested or been on board with has been to fill a need. I don't know who you're referring to when you say that, but I doubt it's more than a handful of people.

 

I disagree with your contention that we beat the teams we should have and lost to the teams we should have in the playoffs. We should not have beaten the Yankees in 2002 (but, as you said, that team got hot), but we should have beaten the Red Sox each and every time we played them. The 2009 ALCS could have gone either way. However, the team is different now than it was for most of the 2002-2009 period. It appears that Scioscia has not recognized this and adjusted accordingly. This is not based on anything but what I see. But it is telling that up until 2009, we did not have back-to-back years out of the postseason, but since then, we have not gotten there, for what will most likely be (barring some miracle) the fourth consecutive season.

 

There comes a point where any manager (or player) has overstayed his welcome. Yes, we won the World Series in 2002 and were in the postseason almost every year from then until 2009. However, we have not been back since, and with two of the last three years finishing in THIRD place, it's become apparent that Scioscia has outstayed his. If it weren't for that stupid ten-year contract, he would surely already be gone.

[Stradling]

By the way guys, great thread, and I mean that in all seriousness.

[Hoops McCann]

Many posters have commented about Sosh losing the team...

 

How can anyone know this for certain?  It is easy to say and easier to use as a point to get rid of the manager, but extremely difficult to prove.  It's in some respects like proving a negative.

 

And it is almost as weak of an excuse as the ever elusive 'clubhouse chemistry'.

 

May be Sosh has lost the team..the players...but given the outsiders view we all have, it is nothing more than a guess and a rather uninformed one at that.

 

Personally, I think Dipoto is much more of an issue (or at least as big of an issue) than Sosh.  His inability to manage Arte, the construct a starting rotation and the picks given up for short-term rentals.

[jimbo]

JD was hoping to bring in some league average pitching in hopes that they would at LEAST be league average, which obviously isn't happening.