Rosenthal: Might be time for Scioscia to leave

[Erstad27]

I too think it might be time for MS to go.  We have seen more and more questionable in-game moves in recent years.  The players don't seem to hustle anymore and, like a lot of you have also pointed out, they are just going through the motion.  Whether or not this is the kind of team MS wants (big hitters and mediocre pitching, but if these are the cards he is dealt (pretty decent deck, too), then it is his job to get the most out of it.

[Brandon]

I'll also reiterate my stance, I wouldn't mind a change but:

HIT THE F.CKING BALL....THE GODDAMN BALL. NONE OF THIS BULLSH.T .250 SH.T WE HAVE TO WATCH. JUST HIT THE F.CKING BALL.

/rant

None of this bullsh.t about tuning out the coach or not listening has sh.t to do with a paid professional inside the batters box. If these jackoffs would simply do what they are capable of this whole subject is a non issue. We had a record better than the AL representatives last year, that doesn't fall on the coaches shoulders just like some assh.le with a 5+ era.

I know jumping Sosh is the cool thing to do right now, but what do you do when they make the change and these d.ckheads are still batting .250 with 5+ era's?

[Charlie B Barkin]

The Angels should go after Mike Maddux but they won't. The guy is the best pitching coach in the game and is great with players. I agree that Scioscia needs to go but that won't fix the Angels. Their pitching will still be garbage, they will still have the worst Farm in the league, and they will still be stuck with awful contracts. This will take 3 or 4 years.

[Lifetime]

What players aren't hustling anymore? What players are "just going through the motions"? 

[Caralho]

You make more changes whether with coaching, personnel, scouts and the GM until this team actually plays like a major league team.

[VariousCrap]

I know jumping Wish is the cool thing to do right now, but what do you do when they make the change and these d.ckheads are still batting .250 with 5+ era's?

 

 

 

On the flip side, what if they get rid of Sosh and the team ends up improving???

 

With a new coaching staff, they can't get any worse.

[Grigori]

That was a really good article. Sums things up nicely.  The Angels are due for a total rebuild from the bottom up. That's going to take a long time. 

[Lifetime]

I'll also reiterate my stance, I wouldn't mind a change but:

HIT THE F.CKING BALL....THE GODDAMN BALL. NONE OF THIS BULLSH.T .250 SH.T WE HAVE TO WATCH. JUST HIT THE F.CKING BALL.

/rant

None of this bullsh.t about tuning out the coach or not listening has sh.t to do with a paid professional inside the batters box. If these jackoffs would simply do what they are capable of this whole subject is a non issue. We had a record better than the AL representatives last year, that doesn't fall on the coaches shoulders just like some assh.le with a 5+ era.

I know jumping Wish is the cool thing to do right now, but what do you do when they make the change and these d.ckheads are still batting .250 with 5+ era's?

Not bad Brandon

[Mark68]

I'll also reiterate my stance, I wouldn't mind a change but:

HIT THE F.CKING BALL....THE GODDAMN BALL. NONE OF THIS BULLSH.T .250 SH.T WE HAVE TO WATCH. JUST HIT THE F.CKING BALL.

/rant

None of this bullsh.t about tuning out the coach or not listening has sh.t to do with a paid professional inside the batters box. If these jackoffs would simply do what they are capable of this whole subject is a non issue. We had a record better than the AL representatives last year, that doesn't fall on the coaches shoulders just like some assh.le with a 5+ era.

I know jumping Wish is the cool thing to do right now, but what do you do when they make the change and these d.ckheads are still batting .250 with 5+ era's?

Of course, the hitters need to hit the ball, and the pitchers need to throw the ball. Nobody is saying anything different. However, there is a reason that all teams have a hitting coach and all teams have a pitching coach. It is because sometimes, even professionals go thru slumps, and it is up to the appropriate coach to find whatever it is that is causing the slump, whether it be mechanical, physical, or emotional, their job is to find the problem and come up with a solution.

 

It's the same thing with having the team prepared to face their opponent that day. And if the entire team...with few notable exceptions...is slumping, then what? You certainly can't fire 25 or 40 guys. Especially guys that have track records with previous success. So then what? Do you just let things ride and hope they get better in time for a postseason run? Or do you make what might ultimately be a philosophical change, or, at the very least, a breath of fresh air?

 

Whatever the problems are now, continuing to stay the course is NOT working. It didn't work last year, when the same people who don't want the change now expected it to.

 

I keep asking this question, but I have yet to get an answer: How long does Scioscia get to ride on his accomplishment from eleven years ago?

 

One World Series championship eleven years in the past should not give him a pass in perpetuity.

 

And even most of the Scioscia supporters (a nicer term than "apologists") agree that there have been managerial decisions that have been, at best, suspect. So to them, I ask, what is the breaking point? What is the red line? Is it 2018? Because I really don't want this same BS to continue for the next 5 years. I bleed Angel red, but I don't want to die from blood loss.

[Stradling]

Hilarious that people here now blame Scioscia for Santana. Apparently no one here remembers thinking Santana was a piece of shit. Am I the only one that remembers his ups and downs every other year. Gotta love misguided anger.

[Earnest Borgnine of 9]

Hilarious that people here now blame Scioscia for Santana. Apparently no one here remembers thinking Santana was a piece of shit. Am I the only one that remembers his ups and downs every other year. Gotta love misguided anger.

Exactly. And my point regarding Santana was people also said he had no display of emotion and so he didn't care about a bad outing. Of course he did. Not every expresses emotions the same.

[Lifetime]

Of course, the hitters need to hit the ball, and the pitchers need to throw the ball. Nobody is saying anything different. However, there is a reason that all teams have a hitting coach and all teams have a pitching coach. It is because sometimes, even professionals go thru slumps, and it is up to the appropriate coach to find whatever it is that is causing the slump, whether it be mechanical, physical, or emotional, their job is to find the problem and come up with a solution.

Here's the thing, for the most part, the hitters are hitting as expected. We basically have two hitters that have high expectations that are not up to par right now, Pujols who is injured and Hamilton. Otherwise there really aren't any slumping hitters. We aren't getting key hits but that doesn't point to lack of coaching. 

 

So let's look at pitching. We lost our ace early on leaving a huge hole in a questionable rotation. The remainder of that questionable rotation got off to a rocky start but all of them have shown improvement over their last couple of outings - at least pitching more to expectations. Lousy pitching from our rotation led to an overworked bullpen that had key members missing to the DL and was already the weak link on the team. This made a shaky bullpen even more shaky.

 

 

It's the same thing with having the team prepared to face their opponent that day. And if the entire team...with few notable exceptions...is slumping, then what? You certainly can't fire 25 or 40 guys. Especially guys that have track records with previous success. So then what? Do you just let things ride and hope they get better in time for a postseason run? Or do you make what might ultimately be a philosophical change, or, at the very least, a breath of fresh air?

The entire team isn't slumping, not even close.

 

Whatever the problems are now, continuing to stay the course is NOT working. It didn't work last year, when the same people who don't want the change now expected it to.

Actually staying the course did work last year. It wasn't enough to get them to the playoffs but this team was one of the best teams in baseball from May on.

 

 

 

I keep asking this question, but I have yet to get an answer: How long does Scioscia get to ride on his accomplishment from eleven years ago?

 

One World Series championship eleven years in the past should not give him a pass in perpetuity.

 

And even most of the Scioscia supporters (a nicer term than "apologists") agree that there have been managerial decisions that have been, at best, suspect. So to them, I ask, what is the breaking point? What is the red line? Is it 2018? Because I really don't want this same BS to continue for the next 5 years. I bleed Angel red, but I don't want to die from blood loss.

The thing is, it wasn't just a one year accomplishment for Scioscia led teams. This team spent several years after 2002 in playoff contention. The line that he gets a free pass because of 2002 is erroneous.

 

As for suspect managerial decisions, EVERY manager makes them. His managerial decisions are not what is keeping this team from winning games. What's the breaking point, as I have said numerous times on this subject, if the FO feels that Scioscia can no longer lead this team effectively or that his message is not being heard, that will be the breaking point. They are the only people that are intimate enough with the goings on within the team that can make that kind of assessment. All we as fans have are anecdotal circumstances which is incredibly unreliable and mostly fueled by emotion rather than facts.

[YouthofToday]

Winning a World Series is largely about getting hot at the right time.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't terminate Scioscia during the season. Wait to see if we can trade him or get him to agree to a settlement so Arte doesn't owe him so much $$. This season is nearly lost anyways.

For what it's worth the few former ballplayers I've met over the years all thought Scioscia was a total a-hole -- some where former teammates as Dodgers. One of them relayed he always thought MS was condescending, passive aggressive and had an inferiority complex. Didn't think those qualities translated well to leadership.

I understand this is an anonymous poster (me) paraphrasing anonymous former players. That said, I know it's true.

[YouthofToday]

"What's the breaking point, as I have said numerous times on this subject, if the FO feels that Scioscia can no longer lead this team effectively or that his message is not being heard, that will be the breaking point. They are the only people that are intimate enough with the goings on within the team that can make that kind of assessment. All we as fans have are anecdotal circumstances which is incredibly unreliable and mostly fueled by emotion rather than facts."

This. Well stated.

[Lifetime]

Winning a World Series is largely about getting hot at the right time.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't terminate Scioscia during the season. Wait to see if we can trade him or get him to agree to a settlement so Arte doesn't owe him so much $$. This season is nearly lost anyways.

For what it's worth the few former ballplayers I've met over the years all thought Scioscia was a total a-hole -- some where former teammates as Dodgers. One of them relayed he always thought MS was condescending, passive aggressive and had an inferiority complex. Didn't think those qualities translated well to leadership.

I understand this is an anonymous poster (me) paraphrasing anonymous former players. That said, I know it's true.

name them

[m0nkey]

Name your anonymous source!

[FabulousFabregas]

Scioscia has the trade value of a bag of burning dog poo/Blanton.

[FabulousFabregas]

I do think Scioscia could net us Mathis from Miami though.

[Brandon]

On the flip side, what if they get rid of Sosh and the team ends up improving???

 

With a new coaching staff, they can't get any worse.

It's in the middle of the season, who are you going to get? Bobby Valentine?

And let's say they do get a new coach and the players play like they are capable of, did this new coach have some magic beans or some Rudy pregame speech that suddenly got Pujols up to .330 or Hamilton up to .300?

These are pros man, with a history of success. No manager is going to come in and rah-rah these guys to play better. People need to look at the players failures instead of giving them a free pass.

[Brandon]

Of course, the hitters need to hit the ball, and the pitchers need to throw the ball. Nobody is saying anything different. However, there is a reason that all teams have a hitting coach and all teams have a pitching coach. It is because sometimes, even professionals go thru slumps, and it is up to the appropriate coach to find whatever it is that is causing the slump, whether it be mechanical, physical, or emotional, their job is to find the problem and come up with a solution.

It's the same thing with having the team prepared to face their opponent that day. And if the entire team...with few notable exceptions...is slumping, then what? You certainly can't fire 25 or 40 guys. Especially guys that have track records with previous success. So then what? Do you just let things ride and hope they get better in time for a postseason run? Or do you make what might ultimately be a philosophical change, or, at the very least, a breath of fresh air?

Whatever the problems are now, continuing to stay the course is NOT working. It didn't work last year, when the same people who don't want the change now expected it to.

I keep asking this question, but I have yet to get an answer: How long does Scioscia get to ride on his accomplishment from eleven years ago?

One World Series championship eleven years in the past should not give him a pass in perpetuity.

And even most of the Scioscia supporters (a nicer term than "apologists") agree that there have been managerial decisions that have been, at best, suspect. So to them, I ask, what is the breaking point? What is the red line? Is it 2018? Because I really don't want this same BS to continue for the next 5 years. I bleed Angel red, but I don't want to die from blood loss.

1) No. I was chatting with a prominent ex-NFL coach over the weekend and he said coaches are there to implement a system and see the system is going according to plan. They aren't nannies, psychiatrists, or marriage counselors, etc. They build strategies and game plans, not hand holding. If players need hand holding they aren't professionals and shouldn't be on the team.

2) OK, so you established 25-40 players are playing bad, what is replacing the coach going to do? A lot of this Sosh fire nonsense is the same people that say make a trade for the sake of it. And yes, if their numbers dictate over a large sample size that they are capable of playing better then you ride it out....it's simple statistics (as in math). And again, looking at math, how is some guy filling out a line up card going to alter these player stats?

3) I don't think anyone thinks Sosh is riding on some 11 year old success....the team got hot like previous WS winners. His record speaks for itself. In the playoffs we beat the teams we should have and lost to the ones that were better barring a missed Josh Paul catch and Fuentes 9th inning fastball to A-Rod.

Congrats on having Angels blood. Hopefully nothing drastic happens that requires regular blood or you may have an issue with finding a donor.

[Ray McKigney]

While it is a good article, Rosenthal should hang himself with one of his ridiculously stupid looking bow ties.

[SoCALkid]

It seriously makes me wanna throw up to watch what we did to a guy that hit over 40 home runs last season.

[Inside Pitch]

you are right.  Weaver, Grienke, Wilson, Haren and Santana were horrible pitchers...poor Mike Sciscia.  Had a bunch of scrubs.

 

If only a pitching staff was only three men deep. 

 

Greinke was on the roster when the Angels signed Pujols?   I missed that.   And I guess I imagined the Angels leading the AL in blown saves the season before Pujols was signed.   Yep, the pitching was fine, the team had lots of depth and we had lots of able bodied call ups to fill in when Santana and Haren imploded.   We didn't trade one of the few promising SP prospects in the system for a RP in May to address a glaring hole, that was all in my head.

 

Definitely need to sign more bats this winter.  

[Lifetime]

It seriously makes me wanna throw up to watch what we did to a guy that hit over 40 home runs last season.

what are you talking about?

[Blarg]

I am getting tired of cleaning up threads. Knock it off and keep to the topic.