Rosenthal: Might be time for Scioscia to leave

[Vladfan]

It seriously makes me wanna throw up to watch what we did to a guy that hit over 40 home runs last season.

 

HUH????

[seenoevil]

2nd straight season in a row, where our whole season is flushed down the toilet within the 1st month of the season.  There is going to have to be some  kind of changes to this organization. Is it Dipoto or Scioscia or whomever.
 

[seenoevil]

Scioscia made a lot of bad decisions to hurt this team the last few seasons.

 

I'm still pissed off of him not pinch  running for Morales @ Texas  last season and that stupid squeeze play with Ayabar vs the Redsox

[tdawg87]

you're right. that makes a lot more sense than holding the players accountable.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make here. You aren't even an Angels fan.

No one is not holding the players accountable. They are the ones who are playing like shit. However, you can't just fire the players and bring in new ones. Sure they could make trades and releases but a lot of these guys are untradeable and making far too much to just "release". So what do you do? Changes need to be made and the easiest to change is the coaching staff.

[VariousCrap]

It's in the middle of the season, who are you going to get? Bobby Valentine?

And let's say they do get a new coach and the players play like they are capable of, did this new coach have some magic beans or some Rudy pregame speech that suddenly got Pujols up to .330 or Hamilton up to .300?

These are pros man, with a history of success. No manager is going to come in and rah-rah these guys to play better. People need to look at the players failures instead of giving them a free pass.

 

 

 

While I understand your point and agree with most of it, management/leadership plays a huge role in professional sports.  To underestimate that role is a mistake on your part.

 

This isn't just one bad month.  This is three seasons of failing to make the playoffs and now a horrible start.  All this is done with one of the hightest payrolls in baseball.

 

Sometimes you just have to change the dynamic of the clubhouse.

 

By the time this season is over the and the Angels fail to make the playoffs again, there will have only been one constant over the last four failed seasons and that is Sosh.

[RePLAY]

If only a pitching staff was only three men deep. 

 

Greinke was on the roster when the Angels signed Pujols?   I missed that.   And I guess I imagined the Angels leading the AL in blown saves the season before Pujols was signed.   Yep, the pitching was fine, the team had lots of depth and we had lots of able bodied call ups to fill in when Santana and Haren imploded.   We didn't trade one of the few promising SP prospects in the system for a RP in May to address a glaring hole, that was all in my head.

 

Definitely need to sign more bats this winter.  

 

You are right.  We need a legit closer to help the blow save issues.....maybe a cy young canidate....someone like Fernando Rodney.  Yah....Scioscia needs someone like him....too bad we cant someone like him for Scioscia.  Frickin Dipoto. Fire him!

[Mile High Dreams]

While it is a good article, Rosenthal should hang himself with one of his ridiculously stupid looking bow ties.

 

While I'm not a big fan of his...the reason he wears his bow ties is for charity...so to knock him..maybe to knock the charity as well.

[bloodbrother]

This is a team with WS expectations year in and year out, with the payroll to show for it. They haven't made the postseason for the last 3 years...going on 4. No manager or coach would survive that kind of drought with the expectations for this team. It's not all his fault, but he isn't without blame and somebody ends up taking the fall in these cases. Dipoto is now on the hotseat as well after the offseason he had

[tdawg87]

1) No. I was chatting with a prominent ex-NFL coach over the weekend and he said coaches are there to implement a system and see the system is going according to plan. They aren't nannies, psychiatrists, or marriage counselors, etc. They build strategies and game plans, not hand holding. If players need hand holding they aren't professionals and shouldn't be on the team.

2) OK, so you established 25-40 players are playing bad, what is replacing the coach going to do? A lot of this Sosh fire nonsense is the same people that say make a trade for the sake of it. And yes, if their numbers dictate over a large sample size that they are capable of playing better then you ride it out....it's simple statistics (as in math). And again, looking at math, how is some guy filling out a line up card going to alter these player stats?

3) I don't think anyone thinks Sosh is riding on some 11 year old success....the team got hot like previous WS winners. His record speaks for itself. In the playoffs we beat the teams we should have and lost to the ones that were better barring a missed Josh Paul catch and Fuentes 9th inning fastball to A-Rod.

Congrats on having Angels blood. Hopefully nothing drastic happens that requires regular blood or you may have an issue with finding a donor.

So if, according to you, the manager doesn't have that big of a role other than "filling out the lineup card", then firing him won't be that big of a deal.

Why even have managers then?

[Blarg]

The squeeze play against Boston was 5 years ago, get over it the umpire blew the call as much as Aybar pulling back the bat.

 

Scioscia made a lot of bad decisions to hurt this team the last few seasons.

 

I'm still pissed off of him not pinch  running for Morales @ Texas  last season and that stupid squeeze play with Ayabar vs the Redsox

[Lifetime]

Not what he's saying tdawg 

 

So if, according to you, the manager doesn't have that big of a role other than "filling out the lineup card", then firing him won't be that big of a deal.

Why even have managers then?

[Vladfan]

So if, according to you, the manager doesn't have that big of a role other than "filling out the lineup card", then firing him won't be that big of a deal.

Why even have managers then?

 

That isn't even remotely what he said, but ok.

[VariousCrap]

So if, according to you, the manager doesn't have that big of a role other than "filling out the lineup card", then firing him won't be that big of a deal.

Why even have managers then?

 

 

 

Exactly.  Managers play a huge role in professional sports.  To deny that is simply laughable.

[Lifetime]

Good thing no one did other than the strawman 

[Vladfan]

Exactly.  Managers play a huge role in professional sports.  To deny that is simply laughable.

 

You know this .......How?

[VariousCrap]

You know this .......How?

 

 

 

You are right.  They are not important at all.  Don't know what I was thinking.

[jshep]

Speaking of strawmen, I'm still looking for the post where someone wasn't holding the players accountable for their poor performance.

 

Because even the most anti-Scioscia posts I've seen have been holding the players accountable as well.

[MattFromSimiValley]

The Angels have progressively gotten worse as coaches have been picked from the staff and hired as managers for other teams. So was Scoscia the reason they won in 2002? Or was it Bud Black, Joe Madden and them fellas?

[Vladfan]

You are right.  They are not important at all.  Don't know what I was thinking.

 

Just asking.....

 

These players are not kids anymore that need to be told how to do everything on the baseball field by a manager.

[Lifetime]

The Angels have progressively gotten worse as coaches have been picked from the staff and hired as managers for other teams. So was Scoscia the reason they won in 2002? Or was it Bud Black, Joe Madden and them fellas?

Not accurate 

[RePLAY]

"Players are to blame! Not the Manager"

 

"Well if the Managers don't get blamed and are not accountable, then getting a new Manager isn't a big deal"

 

"Wait! That's not we are saying!"

 

[Inside Pitch]

You are right.  We need a legit closer to help the blow save issues.....maybe a cy young canidate....someone like Fernando Rodney.  Yah....Scioscia needs someone like him....too bad we cant someone like him for Scioscia.  Frickin Dipoto. Fire him!

 

Your ability to consistently miss the boat is impressive.  It wasn't about any ONE guy..  It was about a glaring hole that's existed since he was hired and still hasn't been addressed.  His attempt at fixing the pen was to sign two guys rehabbing surgeries.   To date they have combined for 8.2 innings.  Who other than the guy that put the team together is at fault for that?

You might actually want to argue whats been said for a change too.. I'm not advocating firing Dipoto... you seem to have missed where I have said the opposite and argued the team needs to let the situation play itself out..  Unless people are homers with a man-crush, there is no denying this pitching staff is HIS baby and it's success and failure will fall on his shoulders.  Burnett, De La Rosa, Frieri, Roth, Enright, Vargas, Hanson, Williams, Wilson, Lowe, and Blanton were all acquired by Dipoto.   And since you brought up Rodney, let's pretend his fluke season isn't over and that he's NOT back to being the same Fernando Rodney he's always been...  But the guy that let him walk is the guy you seemingly want to absolve of all fault, Jerry Dipoto... you know the guy that tried to trade for Carlos Marmol and his 9.8 million dollar salary.

[RePLAY]

No Sir.  I didn't miss anything.  And I'll say it again.  How did we do the past 3 years?  Its quite simple.  We have no time to "let it play our for itself".  Scioscia even with the best 5 starting pitchers in the league couldn't get us in the playoffs...yet a team like OAKLAND CAN?  AGAIN. OAKLAND.  We can't always get the best players in the world in every position (and other teams cant either), but a Manager can sure make it happen.  Why can other teams with a bunch of nobody's do it?  If you don't think 3 years is long enough to "let it play out", I don't know what is....cuz any other manager would have been fired by now.

 

 

Your ability to consistently miss the boat is impressive.  It wasn't about any ONE guy..  It was about a glaring hole that's existed since he was hired and still hasn't been addressed.  His attempt at fixing the pen was to sign two guys rehabbing surgeries.   To date they have combined for 8.2 innings.  Who other than the guy that put the team together is at fault for that?

You might actually want to argue whats been said for a change too.. I'm not advocating firing Dipoto... you seem to have missed where I have said the opposite and argued the team needs to let the situation play itself out..  Unless people are homers with a man-crush, there is no denying this pitching staff is HIS baby and it's success and failure will fall on his shoulders.  Burnett, De La Rosa, Frieri, Roth, Enright, Vargas, Hanson, Williams, Wilson, Lowe, and Blanton were all acquired by Dipoto.   And since you brought up Rodney, let's pretend his fluke season is over and that he's back to being the same Fernando Rodney he's always been...  But the guy that let him walk is the guy you seemingly want to absolve of all fault, Jerry Dipoto... you know the guy that tried to trade for Carlos Marmol and his 9.8 million dollar salary.

[Inside Pitch]

Forgive the length of this -- I figure I'll go on record with my thoughts on MS and everything else so that I avoid some dimwit trying to paint me as a MS apologist  or JD hater...

 

 

I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change, but neither do I believe it's okay to stick with the status quo.   I don't think the game has passed Scioscia by, I fully expect him to have success again, but outside looking in he seems detached, and I can't imagine he looks at this team and sees a winner, not in the sense of what he views as a championship caliber club.  I don't think he's a good enough actor to fake something he hasn't shown even when the team is doing well, emotion. 

 

MS has always been a guy that felt the SP set the tone for the entire game and the team, it's always been said that's one reason he's been so hard on his catchers as he's said he feels it's their job to help the pitchers first and foremost.  Regardless of how much they may publicly try to talk it down, I think it's pretty clear there is an even larger disconnect between the manager and the GM, which is fine only I don't think it's a relationship that MS can succeed in.  I don't think it's about his being stubborn or too set in his ways, I think he's just a guy that needs to believe in what he's doing and the people he has and its possible that isn't in play here.   I can't imagine he was on board with the team going from a guy that was known as a character guy, a player who's every move breathed leadership to one who has needed the teams he's been on to alter their way of operating to keep him from imploding.  MS is IMO the worst guy in MLB to ask to coddle and baby a superstar and that's whats been asked of him with Hamilton.  Coddle is maybe the wrong word, but I'm sorry, I just can't picture MS having to interact with JH's life coach or give him daily affirmations.. 

 

I'm not taking a side, because I believe both MS and JD are quality people who may have BOTH gone too far in one direction with things, but I do believe Dipoto is more apt to learn from his mistakes than MS is at this point. I think there is a level of contempt in play, MS has won, he's done it his way and it's worked while the new guy has just weakened the team's strengths -- I genuinely think that's how MS sees it.  JD likely views some of MS's thinking as stringent, even old school.  I just don't think these two can work well together, MS likely wants to have greater say that he currently does and for Dipoto to succeed he really can't have any challengers to the vision he has of the teams future.  They were forced into a working relationship, MS was never JD's guy and over time, it's possible the situation will worsen.

 

I do worry that JD is being a bit too cavalier in addressing the pitching staff for two years in a row and is possibly guilty of being a bit too experimental with the saber principles but, ownership bought into his vision.  Arte allowed him to clean house and gave him free reign to remold this team from the bottom up and cutting him off now would be a mistake.  I don't think an in season move makes much sense, this roster is what it is and it's doubtful the guy they bring is would be anything but an interim guy.  But, I think it would be foolish for the team to continue to pretend this marriage will work long term, the differences seem to be growing.  My biggest concern here is that Mike Scioscia seems more likely to stand up to Arte than Jerry Dipoto, and I'm not sure the Angels can have a spineless GM while Arte is owner.  

 

Even if this team were to turn it around and play .600 ball the rest of the year -- the MS/JD tug of war (real or not), will be a constant issue.  One way or another the team needs to resolve the situation.

 

There is the real possibility that the Dodgers (or someone else), would be willing to part with something in order to bring in a guy like Scioscia..  Their roster more closely resembles a MS team than ours does, if you're the Angels and you can flip MS into someone that can help your on field roster -- they would be foolish not to do that just because they're afraid they might end up looking stupid.   Besides, after the Pujols and Hamilton signings, people already think they are are stupid.   

[Inside Pitch]

No Sir.  I didn't miss anything.  And I'll say it again.  How did we do the past 3 years?  Its quite simple.  We have no time to "let it play our for itself".  Scioscia even with the best 5 starting pitchers in the league couldn't get us in the playoffs...yet a team like OAKLAND CAN?  AGAIN. OAKLAND.  We can't always get the best players in the world in every position (and other teams cant either), but a Manager can sure make it happen.  Why can other teams with a bunch of nobody's do it?  If you don't think 3 years is long enough to "let it play out", I don't know what is....cuz any other manager would have been fired by now.

 

LOL..  I love how you state you didn't miss the boat then go about proving you did.    

 

Tell you what -- yes, you're right,   You got it all figured out.   The only thing wrong with this pitching staff is the manager.  If Bob Melvin were managing the Angels, Joe Blanton would be the early favorite for AL Cy Young.   Ryan Madsen and Sean Burnett would BOTH be 100% and Josh Hamilton's OPS would be eleventy million.