Twins acquire Santiago

[Inside Pitch]

6 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

By the way, look at the prospects that Cashman traded to get Chapman and then look at the prospects he got in return for Chapman.

Yeah -- because the Yankees traded for a guy facing a suspension and with a lot of potential baggage unless of course you believe a guy possibly facing domestic violence charges is a non issue.  The Yanks took a risk in hopes of there being a payoff..   The Angels have similarly taken on some risk in trading for Meyer..   Hopefully they see a payoff.

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, Oz27 said:

As for Cashner, yes you can. After the Colin Rea debacle it ended up a five player trade with the Padres giving up Cashner and Tayron Guerrero, a pretty terrible right handed reliever with a career 1.50 WHIP in the minors. So Cashner was the bulk of the value in the final deal for the Marlins.

Not sure why you keep bringing up the Cashner deal..  that wasn't a great prospect haul for the Pads...  they got all of one prospect for Cashner, a short, fat, 1B that hasn't yet put up 1B like numbers.  He's so bad defensively that some draft cards had him listed as a DH while still in HS...  Not saying that was a bad deal -- I like Capps and think Cosart could be useful but Capps is a RP rehabbing TJ surgery and Cosart is a guy with stuff good enough to dream on but a spotty performance record as a SP.

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Not sure why you keep bringing up the Cashner deal..  that wasn't a great prospect haul for the Pads...  they got all of one prospect for Cashner, a short, fat, 1B that hasn't yet put up 1B like numbers.  He's so bad defensively that some draft cards had him listed as a DH while still in HS...  Not saying that was a bad deal -- I like Capps and think Cosart could be useful but Capps is a RP rehabbing TJ surgery and Cosart is a guy with stuff good enough to dream on but a spotty performance record as a SP.

Was it a great prospect haul overall? Of course not. But they turned Andrew Cashner, a pretty shitty pitcher, into something useful. Put it this way, I prefer what the Padres got for Cashner to what we got for Santiago. If I could swap what the Padres got and what we got, I would. It really should not be that way. Even if I'm wrong and our return is better, it's at least close. That's not right.

[Oz27]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

None of them pending FAs.  

You're being purposely obtuse when comparing the Angels and Yankees situations..... the Yankees traded one guy under club control beyond this season -- and that guy was a RP.  Among the guys you listed by name; Calhoun -- 2020, Simmons - 2021, Shoemaker - 2021, Bedrosian - 2022, and Skaggs - 2020, all have to be viewed as core players --  it's an apples and oranges comparison.  The one guy they didn't fit the core type profile was Escobar and it's pretty obvious there wasn't the sort of interest they were hoping for -- Jeff Fletcher even commented about the "other things" possibly limiting the interest in him in the days before the deadline.  You can talk up how not moving him was a missed opportunity but it's really hard to take that seriously after you argued Trevor Gott for Escobar was a mistake and an overpay.   All the same reasoning you applied to that original stance I would assume are still in place, only now he has one less year of control.  So what changed?  If he wasn't worth Gott before, why would you suddenly argue he's worth more than that now?  

The Yanks weren't moving guys like Gregorius or Castro, had they done those sorts of deals then the argument that the Angels failed where the Yankees succeeded has some teeth but the two situations aren't remotely similar..  In fact if you look at all the deadline deals, outside of possibly Matt Moore and his multiple team option there simply weren't any core type players with 3+ years of team control moved for prospects. 

I would have liked to see the Angels do more but whatever...  As I have said previously, at least they seem to have a plan in place.   We will find out how well that plan works out..... hopefully better than the last one.

I'm not comparing situations, I'm simply making the point that the Yankees sold assets and we didn't. People are saying we didn't have assets that would generate a significant return and that is simply untrue. Those guys, mostly, weren't pending free agents but they could have been sold for minor league talent had we chosen to. In some cases it would have been smart to, in others ... probably not. Yes, the Yankees and Angels situations are very different but I've never said they weren't. As for Escobar's value and it being a missed opportunity, I don't think he is that valuable. He has been better offensively than pretty much every projection and much of that doesn't look very sustainable, yet he still hasn't been that valuable overall. Nevertheless, he will never be more valuable than he is now so I think we should have flipped him for whatever we could get. I doubt it would have been that much but it was still probably a path worth going down.

Not sure how any of that is being "purposely obtuse" but, whatever. You probably could have said all of that without being so condescending.

[arch stanton]

I think it's a better idea not to trade those long term assets until we see what might happen with the CBA this winter. A big change in the CBT or a vote to allow the trading of draft picks and associated slot money might make a huge difference in how teams view player acquisition. It sure seems the Eppler wanted Meyer in SLC when he comes off the DL so he had to get this deal done. To me the biggest lost opportunity for a deadline deal  was when Soto pulled up lame again.

[Inside Pitch]

44 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

I'm not comparing situations, I'm simply making the point that the Yankees sold assets and we didn't. People are saying we didn't have assets that would generate a significant return and that is simply untrue. Those guys, mostly, weren't pending free agents but they could have been sold for minor league talent had we chosen to. In some cases it would have been smart to, in others ... probably not. Yes, the Yankees and Angels situations are very different but I've never said they weren't. As for Escobar's value and it being a missed opportunity, I don't think he is that valuable. He has been better offensively than pretty much every projection and much of that doesn't look very sustainable, yet he still hasn't been that valuable overall. Nevertheless, he will never be more valuable than he is now so I think we should have flipped him for whatever we could get. I doubt it would have been that much but it was still probably a path worth going down.

Not sure how any of that is being "purposely obtuse" but, whatever. You probably could have said all of that without being so condescending.

Wasn't intending to be condescending -- and while you can say you're arguing people who say they couldnt have gotten something are wrong -- you're guilty of ignoring that the situations dictated the actions.

We weren't in the same situation nor did we have the same types of players the Yankees did, so what they did is moot.   To ignore that and press on with the same argument is IMO, somewhat dull witted and while that likely sounds insulting, I swear that's not my intent.   I've said this before -- you're not a dumb guy, you tend to argue valid points and offer well thought out opinions, I respect what you bring to the table.  When I see someone I think tends to make smart observations saying something that seems willfully negligent of the situation -- it seems purposely obtuse.

Hug it out now?

[Blarg]

He is not purposely obtuse,  he's Australian. 

 

 

Very close to the same but with an accent. 

[Inside Pitch]

47 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Was it a great prospect haul overall? Of course not. But they turned Andrew Cashner, a pretty shitty pitcher, into something useful. Put it this way, I prefer what the Padres got for Cashner to what we got for Santiago. If I could swap what the Padres got and what we got, I would. It really should not be that way. Even if I'm wrong and our return is better, it's at least close. That's not right.

The difference between the Angels and Pads deals might just be like the differences in draft strategy JD to Dipoto .  The Pads probably got the safer deal.  I think Cosart's floor is likely higher than Nicolaso's and I'd argue Capps is a pretty good bet to be a good RP again.  I don't really think all that much of Naylor, but he's young so who knows.   But I'd argue that none of the guys they got has the upside Meyer has.    

[Inside Pitch]

18 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

I think it's a better idea not to trade those long term assets until we see what might happen with the CBA this winter. A big change in the CBT or a vote to allow the trading of draft picks and associated slot money might make a huge difference in how teams view player acquisition. It sure seems the Eppler wanted Meyer in SLC when he comes off the DL so he had to get this deal done. To me the biggest lost opportunity for a deadline deal  was when Soto pulled up lame again.

I think the Angels are eyeing the 2017-18 offseason.  Hamilton off the books and some interesting guys will be available.  Eppler is Stoneman like in how little he says publicly so we really have no clue -- but, I can't imagine the team is willing to let Mike Trout think they won't keep trying to win.

[Oz27]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

The difference between the Angels and Pads deals might just be like the differences in draft strategy JD to Dipoto .  The Pads probably got the safer deal.  I think Cosart's floor is likely higher than Nicolaso's and I'd argue Capps is a pretty good bet to be a good RP again.  I don't really think all that much of Naylor, but he's young so who knows.   But I'd argue that none of the guys they got has the upside Meyer has.    

Yes I agree with all of that, they are very different philosophies at play. We played it safe way too much under Dipoto so I get the appeal of going high risk but this still strikes me as a pretty awful example of doing that. Trying to assess the value of the respective packages now though, they're at least comparable right? That shouldn't be. 1.5 seasons of Santiago should be worth way more than two months of Andrew Cashner.

As for your other post, I'll take it on board. Again, I know they're very very different scenarios and I'm not saying otherwise. Beltran and Chapman were no-brainers to sell and our only similar player was Joe Smith, who isn't that good (although I was pleasantly surprised with our return for him). All of that is a side argument anyway. I wish we has been more aggressive in our selling and focused beyond 2017 ... but we didn't. If we are sticking to the 'win now' ideal, I pray that it works. And yes, hug it out - haha

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Oz27 said:

I wish we has been more aggressive in our selling and focused beyond 2017 ... but we didn't. If we are sticking to the 'win now' ideal, I pray that it works. And yes, hug it out - haha

Yeah -- I would have liked to see them be more aggressive as well.  Personally, I don't think it's so much a win now thing as possibly a keep the powder dry til 2018 thing...   Who knows. 

[totdprods]

To me it sounds like the Angels have really wanted Meyer for awhile, were pursuing him often, and were unable to meet the Twins asking price. Concurrently, they were shopping Santiago, not getting much back, and then wound up finding common ground with the Twins late in the day and pulled the trigger. That tells me there is something they really like about Meyer, and there wasn't much interest in Santiago. If someone had offered something 'better' they would have done that deal.

[Torridd]

15 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Just for discussion (and I don't like the trade, if we couldn't get something more solid I'd have held on to santiago), if we made this trade 2 months ago when Hector was scuffling, would we like it?

Good question. I think I'd rather keep a scuffling Santiago than get Nolasco.

[Torridd]

12 hours ago, Lou said:

But you advocated trading him for 2 young players without as much upside. How would that make us better today?

Good point. If I were the GM, I would have kept him. However, if they were going to trade him, I think the best bet would be to get younger by shoring up the minor league with some healthy, "capable" prospects instead of major question marks.

[beatlesrule]

Has it been explained why the 20 year old prospect Alan had to be included? It's essentially Hector for Ricky and Alan for Alex. Angels got older and worse. Hector is 28 and better than 33 year old Ricky. Alex is 26 and has been injured and a bust. Alan is 20 and throws 100.  Huh????   Why did they have to include Alan?

[Angel Oracle]

Just what is it that Eppler sees in Meyer?   He throws hard, but not with much movement; and his secondary pitches are nothing to write home about in his mid 20s.

We better hope for improvement from Nolasco with Simmons, Trout, and Calhoun behind him supplying better D than the Twins did.

[Troll Daddy]

I don't see this trade as a 'win now' move at all. We would of kept Santiago and maybe even extended him if that was the case.

Instead we took Nolasco as a filler for 2017 and Meyers who basically is more of a high risk/high reward project. I don't expect Meyers to come  out of the gate as a winner. I believe they'll use 2017 as a evaluation process for Meyers. I think this trade is more about 2018 and the future. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 hours ago, Oz27 said:

Disagree strongly. Whether you were going to win 50 or 120, would you prefer two months of Chapman or 3.5 years of Calhoun? Hell, there is an argument to be made that Shoemaker would be more valuable for the rest of this year than Chapman ... And he has years of club control beyond that.

Not disagreeing with you, but in terms of calhoun for example, were there any similar guys moved? I know reddick and bruce were traded, but theyre close to FA. Maybe there werent any deals out there teams were interested in for fair cost for calhouns skill/club control.

Most likely though he just wasnt on the table.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Just what is it that Eppler sees in Meyer?   He throws hard, but not with much movement; and his secondary pitches are nothing to write home about in his mid 20s.

We better hope for improvement from Nolasco with Simmons, Trout, and Calhoun behind him supplying better D than the Twins did.

Movement is best judged by seeing it come at you, not from behind the pitcher like most videos that are posted.  It's also worth noting that guys that throw hard can appear to be throwing flat baseballs - some of that has to do with the ball getting there very quickly.  I was always told to listen for the movement rather than look for it -- and by listen they meant the sound of the ball moving through the air, not hitting the mitt..  Guys with a lot of movement will throw loud pitches -- Kevin Brown threw the loudest pitches I've ever heard.   With Meyer, he's got a lot of sink to his FB, and over the course of his minor league career he's posted really strong HR/9 rates and solid GB ratios.  There is a strong correlation between FB velocity/GB rates and MLB success.   If you look at his minor league pull rates and the sort -- he's got a lot of things going for him.

2 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Has it been explained why the 20 year old prospect Alan had to be included? It's essentially Hector for Ricky and Alan for Alex. Angels got older and worse. Hector is 28 and better than 33 year old Ricky. Alex is 26 and has been injured and a bust. Alan is 20 and throws 100.  Huh????   Why did they have to include Alan?

Alan Busenitz hasnt been 20 in 5 years.   The dude is 25 and turns 26 this month.  

[beatlesrule]

My bad, I read reports that he was 20 years old.  Still though, why did the Angels have to include another Prospect?  Eppler essentially traded Hector Santiago for Ricky Nolasco.

[Troll Daddy]

15 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

My bad, I read reports that he was 20 years old.  Still though, why did the Angels have to include another Prospect?  Eppler essentially traded Hector Santiago for Ricky Nolasco.

Essentially we was traded for Alex Meyers ...period. They would of traded Santiago without Nolasco.

[Lou]

29 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Alan Busenitz hasnt been 20 in 5 years.   The dude is 25 and turns 26 this month.  

lol

is he from the Dominican Republic ? 

[ukyah]

i just got back from camping. i'm not even gonna read this thread. what good would it serve? i don't like the deal at all. also, santiago is better than nolasco. he tends to go up and down, but at least he has long stretches of dominance. nolasco? not so much.

[Oz27]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Not disagreeing with you, but in terms of calhoun for example, were there any similar guys moved? I know reddick and bruce were traded, but theyre close to FA. Maybe there werent any deals out there teams were interested in for fair cost for calhouns skill/club control.

Most likely though he just wasnt on the table.

Matt Moore, if we are looking at players generally. It doesn't happen that often but it does happen. Andrelton Simmons is obviously another example. He had a long time left of club control but the Braves sold early.

As for your last point, that would certainly be my guess.

[arch stanton]

I just watched Hector's first inning with the Twins. A long home run to Kipnis, a walk to Napoli and 3 fly ball outs. 26 pitches. The more things change........