Rebuild?

[tdawg87]

I can copy and paste posts into different threads too!

 

My what?

[Guest]

Let's be like the Astros rebuild 4-8 years, tank seasons, waste Trout years then we can challange for the 2nd wildcard spot. Then and only then will all be well. Your welcome.

The natural time to have packed it in and gone full Astros was immediately after Morales was injured in mid 2010. We'd have most of our current core, plus some of the players we traded away, plus good players from high draft picks, plus hundreds of millions of dollars to start spending on big free agents in ~2014.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

I can't think of anything that would cause Mike Trout to request a trade more quickly than for him to see that the club plans to totally demolish the roster and run him out every night with Albert Pujols and a bunch of unproven kids for the next 4-5 years.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[halomatt]

I'm not sure about rebuilding/reloading.  I can see arguments for both.  One thing I do know:  Angels better get smokin hot and make a deep run this October, cause those Astros are just oozing with talent and next year, they will be more mature and will have added even more of their talent to the major league team.  I'm not sure it'll be close next year. 

[gotbeer]

I'm not sure about rebuilding/reloading.  I can see arguments for both.  One thing I do know:  Angels better get smokin hot and make a deep run this October, cause those Astros are just oozing with talent and next year, they will be more mature and will have added even more of their talent to the major league team.  I'm not sure it'll be close next year. 

 

Last year, I thought how cute the Royals.  Young team.  We will take them.  And we got punked out quick.  

 

This year, they are running away with the central and not looking back.  

 

Astros next year will be scary, even if they don't make the playoffs this year.  They are young.  But more importantly, they only have $34 million committed next year.  They do have a lot of arbitration players, and FA'cy.  But overall what you see is what you will get next season.  If they decide that it's time to spend and win a World Series, they could get Price and Cespedes and still be under $100 million.  

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Last year, I thought how cute the Royals.  Young team.  We will take them.  And we got punked out quick.  

 

This year, they are running away with the central and not looking back.  

 

Astros next year will be scary, even if they don't make the playoffs this year.  They are young.  But more importantly, they only have $34 million committed next year.  They do have a lot of arbitration players, and FA'cy.  But overall what you see is what you will get next season.  If they decide that it's time to spend and win a World Series, they could get Price and Cespedes and still be under $100 million.  

 

Honestly, the Astros should be the favorites to win the division next year. Lots of good, young players with a few veterans mixed in, and at least a year ahead of schedule on their rebuilding plan.

[Docwaukee]

Moreno had world series eyes after the 2009 playoffs.  Kendrys went down May 29th of 2010.  On jul 17th we were 3.5 back of the division lead. 

 

We move to 7 gb on jul 25th (8 gb of the wild card), and the next day, Moreno/Reagins/Scioscia went full tard and traded for Dan Haren.  

 

On july 31st.  The deadline for trades.  We were 9 back.  

 

That was the tipping point.  It wasn't so much the trade itself, but a window into where Arte's mind was at.  you could just feel the desperation.  

 

Frankly, we didn't really need to rebuild at that point either.  We just didn't need to trade for Vernon Wells.  Even with the disaster, we won 86 games.  Then the Moreno spiral continues with Pujosl and of course Hamilton.  

 

Btw, not every big contract is a complete and utter disaster.  We've had a run of some really bad ones.  Usually, they are just ok to kinda bad.  Not atrocious.  The really long ones tend to be the worst.  Most teams have one.  Some have more.  If the player isn't super productive in the last 20% of the deal, you kind of expect that and it comes with the territory.  Getting and unprecedented lack of production in the first half of the deal is impressive.  

 

My point is, if you sign a big name this winter, you shouldn't expect what we've seen with our last two big name guys.  The pujols deal was an organizational thing.  It was supposed to get us in the right direction for at least 5-7 years.  It has failed, but that one I am less inclined to be horribly critical of.  There isn't a gm in baseball that expected such a tremendous tank job.  

 

The hamilton deal could be seen from miles away.  Somehow I think Moreno felt he was being shrewd.  To be honest, that's the one that has really hurt us.  You can deal with one deal like that.  Not a second one that is coupled with zero production.  

 

Like it or not, the halos have made their choice.  Financially they can clearly absorb some more payroll.  They have to know it's their only option because there aren't any position players coming in 2-3 years from the current system.  

[Docwaukee]

I went and did so research on the Astros expecting to see that they don't have as much talent as everyone says.  I was wrong.  They are loaded to the gills with potential. But that potential needs to be realized.  

 

I think this year has shown them that their window is now open.  Their payroll is nothing right now and they've got their major guys locked through 2018.  I think they are gonna sign someone like Price or Cueto next year.  The latter seems like a good fit for them for some reason.  I can also see them going after someone like Wieters.  

 

point is, we need to make a move this offseason.  

[tomsred]

I wouldn't concede anything to the Astros next year.  They do have some young players with some really good potential.  They also are playing in a really nice park for their free swinging young power hitters.  When they learn to win on the road, then I will be more impressed.  We will find out if they can take it up a notch next year.  Every year produces new challenges, expectations rise, and they can't afford to sit on what they have done so far.  They can spend a lot more for some high quality free agents, but will they actually do it at the risk of slowing or stunting the development of some of the guys coming up through their system who also compete for those spots? 

[ABC]

Let's be like the Astros rebuild 4-8 years, tank seasons, waste Trout years then we can challange for the 2nd wildcard spot. Then and only then will all be well. Your welcome.

 

haha. well put. and accurate.

[Docwaukee]

I wouldn't concede anything to the Astros next year.  They do have some young players with some really good potential.  They also are playing in a really nice park for their free swinging young power hitters.  When they learn to win on the road, then I will be more impressed.  We will find out if they can take it up a notch next year.  Every year produces new challenges, expectations rise, and they can't afford to sit on what they have done so far.  They can spend a lot more for some high quality free agents, but will they actually do it at the risk of slowing or stunting the development of some of the guys coming up through their system who also compete for those spots? 

As we know all too well, potential doesn't mean dick until you actually make use of it.  I concede nothing but it's not just potential anymore and the Angels need to recognize that.  

[HaloNArizona]

I went through this a while back...(some people didn't agree especially when I mentioned moving Santiago)...but lets look at the Angels as a whole:

 

RF - Cole

CF - MT

LF - Murphy? - replacement

1B/DH - Cron and Pujols

2B - Repacement

SS - Aybar

3B - Freese? Cowart?

C - Perez and ?

 

SP: Weaver, Wilson, Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, Santiago, Tropeano, Shoemaker, Newcomb (probably Triple A bound)

Bullpen: Street, Gott, Smith

 

Next year, I think our rotation will be: Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, Weaver (he is not going anywhere), Wilson (possibly a move back to the pen) and Shoemaker - I think Santiago and either Shoe or Tropeano are moved.  I think by ASB we will probably see Newcomb in our rotation and Wilson or Weaver will be out of the rotation.

 

I think we look to move Santiago for either a LF or 2B replacement, we need a guy who can lead off.  With Hamilton, Wilson, Weaver and Pujols salary, I do not expect us to be heavy in FA, unless we can back load a contract.  Someone make take a flier on Cron if we can sign a power 1B/DH option like Davis.

 

The biggest thing, is we need a strong draft and a better scouting budget.
 

[Troll Daddy]

Skaggs is still a big question mark in the rotation. Wilson will start over Weaver if it came down to it. I expect a healthy Wilson next spring ... possibly our third best option in the rotation. 

[Angel Oracle]

Newcomb does need to harness the control more.

Otherwise, he could be a load for opposing batters.

If Wilson does in 2016 what he did after his previous bone spurs removal (strong in 2013),

I would be one happy camper.

We have an absolute wealth of lefties between the high minors and the parent team, although varying talent levels, development, and health, with Santiago, Wilson, Heaney, Skaggs, Smith, Newcomb, and DeLoach.

They will need to effectively work from that, whether to trade a couple to augment either the righty side of the mound, or the hitting.

Speaking of which, the righty side of the mound is in flux too, as they can only truly rely on Richards for all of 2016. Tropeano is still a question mark. Shoe and his splitter over close to 200 innings may be a TJ surgery candidate (twice forearm tightness in 2015). Weaver is close to finished. Ellis is the only righty on the farm even close to being MLB ready.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[KevinJ14]

Would you guys trade Cron for Bogaerts? If we can sign Chris Davis.

[tomsred]

Here's an interesting article on Cespedes by the way.  Someone will probably way overpay for him.

 

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2015/9/17/9344809/cespedes-mets-mvp-free-agent-mistake

[Inside Pitch]

Would you guys trade Cron for Bogaerts? If we can sign Chris Davis.

 

Chris Davis would  be another hitter who's primary value is built around the long ball and yet another station to station runner with a negative defensive value...  .   As far as Cron for Bogarts goes, all the reasons you would want to make that trade are why the Red Sox wouldn't...   He's basically a 5 WAR player already at age 22.  

 

So my question is would you trade a 5 WAR shortstop for a DH with a career OBP below .300?

[Homebrewer]

The answer is... they wouldn't.

[KevinJ14]

It was just an example. I just have a feeling that Angels will sign Chris Davis.

[Angel Oracle]

They are building their team around Bogearts, amongst others. Shortstops with his production don't grow on trees.

I originally didn't want to see Davis signed due to the RF wall issue that knocks down the LHH power.

But someone recently posted the distance and location tracker on his HRs.

A lot of 400+ foot HRs that go from LF over to RF.

He might be one of the very few LHH power hitters who wouldn't be fazed by the RF wall here.

But only if they traded Cron, would I want to consider that signing.

Cron is also showing what he can do. I'm not so sure I want to trade him and his controllable years.

[NrM]

Am I the only one who doesn't have much confidence in Cron going forward?

He just doesn't provide anything other than doubles and a few homeruns.

Very limited skill set.

Probably a 1-2 War player over the course of a full season.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Poozy

[Stradling]

He's a decent power threat and a capable DH.

[Docwaukee]

They are building their team around Bogearts, amongst others. Shortstops with his production don't grow on trees.

I originally didn't want to see Davis signed due to the RF wall issue that knocks down the LHH power.

But someone recently posted the distance and location tracker on his HRs.

A lot of 400+ foot HRs that go from LF over to RF.

He might be one of the very few LHH power hitters who wouldn't be fazed by the RF wall here.

But only if they traded Cron, would I want to consider that signing.

Cron is also showing what he can do. I'm not so sure I want to trade him and his controllable years.

So we had Trumbo and Vlad on this team and I can confidently say that Cron takes the cake for the awkward at bat.  That said, I think he's a better hitter than Trumbo.  His obp over his last 236pa is .340.  That's just fine by me.  There is that faint inkling that because of his ability to make contact his discipline could creep in the right direction.  Regardless, he's gonna be super streaky  

 

It's the wrong time to trade him though unless someone is enamored with his power and wants to give up a lot to get him.  Otherwise, give him a full year of at bats.  Let him put up 30hrs with a .750ops and a .310obp and then we can trade him ala Trumbo.  If he does better than that, you keep him.  But I wouldn't hesitate if the right move came along.  

 

A quick note about Chris Davis and the 400ft hr.  So those distances are measured without taking into account air density and temperature.  The two biggest external factors on how far the ball will travel after it's hit.  The marine layer is real.  So a ball that travels 400 feet in baltimore during the summer won't go nearly that far in Anaheim.   He gets his value by the sheer number of hrs he hits.  It's no mystery that he got better when the weather got warmer.  He's offense only and is attached to a draft pick (or will be)

 

To me, that's a big deal relative to what we do this offseason.  We stand to have about the 17-20th pick.  You have to ask yourself what that's worth in future dollars and then tack that on to any player associated with a pick.  It's why I would also steer clear of Gordon, Upton and even Heyward as well.   

 

Cespedes is the best option in my opinion.  Also because he's a very good defender.  The problem is, he's not a great option.  Just a good one and he's gonna cost 20mil per season.   Parra would be my second choice although I am not sure he's head and shoulders better than murphy.  

 

I also really like Zobrist.  No pick attached.  Excellent defender at 2b.  Gets on base.  Some decent pop.  Problem is that he's a little long in the tooth and could dump at any time.  If you can get him for 3 years and 15/17per, that'd be great.  Victor Martinez got 4/60.  Different players, but I think Zobrist game will translate better as he ages.  I'd do 3/50.

 

Juan Uribe is my guy at 3b next year.  Maybe platoon him with Cowart.  Give him a 1yr deal.  

 

If you aren't going to go big for LF, then I'd kick the tires on Price and Cueto.  Again, no pick attached.  If cueto is healthy, he could be the better play because of his recent struggles.  If you could get him for under 100mil, I'd do it and move Santiago and others for either a young unproven LFer or 2bman.  Zobrist could play either spot so you have some flex if you sign him.  

 

Bottom line, you have to infuse some offense without hurting the farm or giving up draft picks.  Newcomb will be in the rotation by years end.  I agree about Wilson.  I think he's gonna be solid next year.  Weaver I am not so sure about.  

[OregonLAA]

Brandon Drury from the Diamondbacks? He has looked good in limited action this year and they have all kinds if infielders and nowhere to put them

[tomsred]

Doc, I wonder what you think of the following article on Cespedes?  As you have noted he could go for a ton of money.  I kind of like the Zobrist route, and think he would be a good fit here, but as you say for no more than three years. 

 

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2015/9/17/9344809/cespedes-mets-mvp-free-agent-mistake