Rebuild?

[Docwaukee]

Yes, too evident based on Internet fan websites. If he grew up in Texas would we assume he was going to the Rangers or Astros?

every player that has every come here as a free agent is from california.  didn't you know that?

[gotbeer]

Lets just hope the Netflix CEO is right in predicting cable TV will be dead in 10-20 years.

The MLB needs to wake up and start favoring internet only fans. There's a lot of revenue they're missing out on.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2853481/It-s-kind-like-horse-good-car-Netflix-CEO-says-broadcast-TV-dead-2030.html

 

Just remember.  Internet is the MLB's domain in it's entirety.  Teams only control the local market's tv rights.  This would be the biggest leveling of the playing field if cable tv died.  

 

Because now you can't have the Yanks and Dogs printing their own money.  Everyone would be equal.  

[Inside Pitch]

maybe it's a perception thing, but Jerry inherited a mess. 

 

It could be argued that part of that perception may have been due to the erosion of what had been a great farm system....   Personally, IMO Jerry has left a mess too...  One muddied even further by his taking his ball and going home. 

 

we had almost zero pitching prospects.  Richards, Chatwood, and maybe Shoemaker were the only ones with major league potential and we still have 2 of the 3 plus skaggs, santiago, tropeano, heaney, newcomb, smith, ellis and a bunch of others that have yet to show us all they have including a bunch of guys who will end up major league relievers

 

And now we have almost zero hitting prospects.   If you want to praise the job done in acquiring pitching then you cannot ignore the complete failure in acquiring offense.   Also, since you spoke of organizational currency -- Skaggs, Santiago, Tropeano, Heaney were all acquired by assets already in place, offensive assets Jerry inherited.   As were Jose Alvarez, Frieri, and even Greinke.

 

in 2011, our farm system included guys like pena, hellweg, roach, maronde, austin wood, jairo diaz, fabio martinez, shugel.  Besides the Richards and shoe, there were zero at AA or above and even the guys mentioned below that aren't likely to be legit major leaguers.  There weren't even any relief prospects.  I guess you could include losing Walden. 

 

And in 2015, our farm system has maybe one guy (Kubitza), acquired by Jerry who might be a MLB player above AA.   One.    I'm a huge proponent of acquiring as much prevention as possible, but completely punting on offense isn't good.

 

on the position player side there was cron, segura and grichuk.  your're not going to get me to legitimize the prospect status of guys like amarista and romine though.  we have plenty of guys like that.  Conger was already no longer a prospect.  he had 200pa before jerry got there.  position player wise, we've given up trumbo, kendrick, grichuk, and segura.  Are there any other that would be a legitimate impact on this team or could be in the future?  To me, we increased org currency with the kendrick and trumbo trades.  I personally didn't see a lot of value in Trumbo and Kendrick is now a free agent anyway.  

 

Whatever you think of Amarista and Romine -- you cannot deny they were capable enough to acquire players of value.  Frieri was a useful player until he blew up, Alvarez has been a useful player all season and might just be a better SP option than Jered Weaver moving forward.   So, when you talk up organizational currency let's not gloss over/dismiss guys who acted as such.   Also, I really don't care if Conger had surpassed the prospect status, he was a young player who like Romine and Amarista was useful in helping acquire players of actual value moving forward.   A very strong case can be made that Jerry misspent a very valuable asset in Grichuk.   

 

BTW, while I was never a Trumbo fan (the player not the person), I was one of the very few that argued he DID have value to NL teams and that his one redeeming skill set could be exploited.   Trumbo was able to bring in Santiago and Skaggs who you more than likely DO consider to be of value.  So when it's all said and done he was an asset than helped increase our organizational currency.  

 

Another thing, comparing the farm from five years ago to now is a fools errand.  We have actual results from one and very limited data on the other.   

 

A fools errand possibly, but no less a fools errand than ignoring actual results in favor of trying to assess a value to "potential".    IMO, that's what led to the perception problem surrounding the Angels farm system in 2011.  It was bad, but it was better than people made it out to be.   

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to argue that we have a good farm system.  But it's certainly gotten better when you take the whole org into account.  

 

Sorry, I just don't see it.   Better than 2012 and 2013 -- fine, but comparing 2011 to now, we simply moved the pile around a bit -- gone from one extreme to the other and IMO there are even greater obstacles to overcome.

 

I follow the farm system pretty closely, I like to believe I have a pretty good handle on prospects both ours and around baseball....  While I like what's happened pitching wise, I can't recall the last time the position player base in the farm system was this barren.    This is probably the worst its been since 99 or so when guys like Brian Specht, Eplidio Guzman, Jarrod Abruzzo, Nathan Haynes and Gary Johnson were our top five position player prospects...  If you can't remember any of those guys it's not your fault -- they were all awful.  The big difference between then and now is we don't have a MLB roster with Jim Edmonds, Darin Erstad, Tim Salmon, Garret Anderson, and Troy Glaus.   All of who I would rank ahead of everyone not named Trout on the current 25 man roster and that's what concerns me moving forward.

 

Thanks for your well thought out response Doc...   I'm certain we will see guys surprise, I'm certain others will simply improve and negate some of my concerns but I really don't like what's there offensively right now and given the state of the MLB roster the situation seems magnified.

 

On the plus side, I don't believe it will get any worse.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Homebrewer]

Angellakerfan..

Pitchers have a significant advantage pitching in relief, so I'm not sure why you seem to find it so outlandish.>>>

With CJ, who still has some stuff, a bullpen move might work out.

Weaver's mid-80s fastball doesn't translate to bullpen success.

Considering how he gets rocked in early innings, Weaver being effective out of the pen is a bit outlandish. He isn't going to have innings to establish a rhythm, a strike zone, or move the ball around like he does as a starter.

[NrM]

Just remember.  Internet is the MLB's domain in it's entirety.  Teams only control the local market's tv rights.  This would be the biggest leveling of the playing field if cable tv died.  

 

Because now you can't have the Yanks and Dogs printing their own money.  Everyone would be equal.  

 

It's not if, but when...

 

it's inevitable...the only thing keeping cable tv going is live sports broadcasting.

The MLB would rather sacrifice the future just to secure their precious cable revenue for what? another 10 years?

 

They are only alienating the internet only fans. 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Poozy

[gotbeer]

It's not if, but when...

 

it's inevitable...the only thing keeping cable tv going is live sports broadcasting.

The MLB would rather sacrifice the future just to secure their precious cable revenue for what? another 10 years?

 

They are only alienating the internet only fans. 

 

It's not MLB protecting it.  It's the individual teams with broadcast contracts.  Which is why there are blackouts.  Because it isn't really protecting the cable tv's.  But not infringing on the franchise rights contract.  

 

And I agree that going internet, or expanding to internet would be the best thing.  

 

I think, IMO, the biggest mistake MLB has made is that when a few teams tv rights have gone bankrupt, like Houston.  MLB should have pounced on those few and slowly integrated internet in.  

[Angel Oracle]

It seems clear that knowing what made a good offensive talent was not one of JeDi's strong suits.

[Homebrewer]

Joyce sucked, and that was the one that really hurt the most.

But by the time Hamilton shit out on us, there weren't a whole lot of options open to him.

The Hamilton debacle hurt this offense badly...and that one isn't on Jedi.

This team never gelled, and that shit just happens sometimes.

They never pulled together as a unit..

[Angelsjunky]

I think what we're seeing is the fallout from the Angels going all-in on Pujols and Hamilton as two corners of a so-called "MVP candidate triad." We all know how that has turned out: one player was completely useless, and the other not much more than above average. I know it is a dead-horse, but it is one that is still lying there, stinking up the barn.

 

The Weaver collapse was hard to predict. And Wilson has been OK, although never as good as he was those last two years in Texas, which is odd considering that he went from a hitter's park to a pitcher's park - which probably masked his decline somewhat.

 

I still think there's a solid core of young (and cheap) pitching talent in Richards, Santiago, Shoemaker, Heaney, Tropeano, Alvarez, Newcomb, Gatto, Ellis, etc. It would be nice to have a Cueto or Price, but isn't absolutely necessary.

 

The big problem is the offense. What worries me the most is that after Trout there's really no one now or on the horizon that is star caliber. Calhoun is a nice, above average starter. Aybar was, but who knows if he'll bounce back next year. But Pujols has sucked this year except for a month and a half and has overall been about average for a first baseman. On the farm...Taylor Ward and Jahmai Jones have some promise, but in terms of plus position player talent that's about it. Maybe Baldoquin.

 

So the team needs offense, and it needs it badly. There are actually adequate players at all or most positions, but that's the problem: a lot of adequacy = mediocrity. The Angels need at least a couple plus bats in the lineup to turn this ship around.

[Angel Oracle]

If Baldoquin doesn't improve next season in high-A ball, time to maybe write him off?

The money invested is a lot for him to be failing for two straight seasons in high-A ball.

At least by then the two year foreign talent moratorium will be over.    But will Arte Moreno continue to ignore it?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[Homebrewer]

They spent too much money to just write him off.

They have to keep him around and hope he develops.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Homebrewer

[NrM]

The dodgers routinely develop solid offensive bats with mostly lower end picks and few first rounders.

There's no excuse for the Angels. 

 

Just this year they promoted Joc Pederson and Corey Seager. Both these guys would instantly become our 2nd and 3rd best everyday players.

 

Last year it was Dee Gordon

2 years ago it was Yasiel Puig. 

 

They also had Hector Olivera who should be a solid power guy.

 

To top it all off, they currently have more high upside SP prospects than the Angels.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Poozy

[Guest]

Just remember. Internet is the MLB's domain in it's entirety. Teams only control the local market's tv rights. This would be the biggest leveling of the playing field if cable tv died.

Because now you can't have the Yanks and Dogs printing their own money. Everyone would be equal.

The only losers in this picture are shareholders of Time Warner

[Second Base]

To be fair, Puig and Olivera weren't really products of their farm system, and they both cost quite a bit of money.

[NrM]

To be fair, Puig and Olivera weren't really products of their farm system, and they both cost quite a bit of money.

 

They're still considered prospects no different from roberto baldoquin

Edited September 23, 2015 by Poozy

[VariousCrap]

After hearing that Cespedes could climb as high as 6 years/$130-140 million, take a step back from expensive FAs for another season.

Then with some $43 million coming off of the 2015 payroll by November 2016 (not including Aybar if needing to be re-signed), they can go after one of the elite (and not declining) FAs a year from now.

There is a problem with this and that is there are no good FA's for 2017, where the 2016 has some serious talent. If you don't sign a big offensive FA this offseason, you aren't getting one for at least two years.

Being you always bring up age (and for good reason), the answer to this situation is Heyward. He is only 26 years old. My guess is he'll sign a eight year contract with an opt out at four or five years. It is a smart move. He'd offer Trout some solid protection.

The other option would be Upton who is only 28 years old. Again, you can offer him a six year deal with an opt out at four years. He also would offer Trout solid protection too.

Edited September 23, 2015 by VariousCrap

[VariousCrap]

It's not if, but when...

 

it's inevitable...the only thing keeping cable tv going is live sports broadcasting.

The MLB would rather sacrifice the future just to secure their precious cable revenue for what? another 10 years?

 

They are only alienating the internet only fans. 

 

 

 

The only reason I still have cable is for sports and that is mainly Angels baseball.  The day MLB offers Angels baseball on the internet with no black out date crap, bye bye cable.

[Second Base]

They're still considered prospects no different from roberto baldoquin

Agreed, but you specifically said "developed", and I think that's unfair. The Dodgers no more developed their Cuban imports than the Angels developed Tyler Skaggs.

[Angel Oracle]

So much for Santiago fetching anyone in a trade.

Dude totally sucks since the ASB.

An opt out for Heyward would be intriguing.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[70runner]

Being you always bring up age (and for good reason), the answer to this situation is Heyward. He is only 26 years old. My guess is he'll sign a eight year contract with an opt out at four or five years. It is a smart move. He'd offer Trout some solid protection.

The other option would be Upton who is only 28 years old. Again, you can offer him a six year deal with an opt out at four years. He also would offer Trout solid protection too.

 

Protection for Trout is dependent on two ingredients, a hitter that would cause a team/pitcher to avoid walking Trout to get to said hitter and a manager who would place said hitter right after Trout in the lineup.  Scioscia would have to move Pujols down the lineup which ain't gonna happen as long as Pujols can still lumber to the plate.  Scioscia won't even remove Pujols late for a pinch runner in tight games.

[Angelsjunky]

The dodgers routinely develop solid offensive bats with mostly lower end picks and few first rounders.

There's no excuse for the Angels. 

 

Just this year they promoted Joc Pederson and Corey Seager. Both these guys would instantly become our 2nd and 3rd best everyday players.

 

Last year it was Dee Gordon

2 years ago it was Yasiel Puig. 

 

They also had Hector Olivera who should be a solid power guy.

 

To top it all off, they currently have more high upside SP prospects than the Angels.

 

One word: SCOUTING. The Angels suck at it.

 

Agreed, but you specifically said "developed", and I think that's unfair. The Dodgers no more developed their Cuban imports than the Angels developed Tyler Skaggs.

 

International scouting is part of development, Scotty.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Angelsjunky

[Angel Oracle]

Why are Halos' scouts and coaches so inept?

Moreno doesn't believe in paying for the best scouts and development coaches?

If you ask me, Moreno is too prim and proper for 21st century baseball.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[gotbeer]

Why are Halos' scouts and coaches so inept?

Moreno doesn't believe in paying for the best scouts and development coaches?

If you ask me, Moreno is too prim and proper for 21st century baseball.

 

Don't know if the scouts are inept.  But seeing pre and post Bane.  Moreno backed the wrong horse.

[VariousCrap]

Protection for Trout is dependent on two ingredients, a hitter that would cause a team/pitcher to avoid walking Trout to get to said hitter and a manager who would place said hitter right after Trout in the lineup.  Scioscia would have to move Pujols down the lineup which ain't gonna happen as long as Pujols can still lumber to the plate.  Scioscia won't even remove Pujols late for a pinch runner in tight games.

 

 

Strong points.  Of course, you are assuming MS will be back next year.  Second, you are assuming the new GM won't insist on Pujols bats 5th.  There is no way of knowing if the Angels don't get the type of hitter that fits that #4 spot in the line-up.  Right now, they have nobody better than Pujols for that.

[Second Base]

One word: SCOUTING. The Angels suck at it.

International scouting is part of development, Scotty.

International scouting is part of.......wait for it....scouting.

Development is actually taking a player, refining their ability and helping them grow as ball players as they climb the minor league ladder. That didn't really happen in the Dodgers case.

But I suppose your definition and specifics of all of this is open to interpretation.

I wil say I generally agree with the spirit of what you guys are saying though. I kinda feel like if the Angels have no international presence, lack the ability to grow position players and have nothing coming through the system, they should be spending money on high profile Cuban imports. Not sure Baldoquin fits that description.