This disaster lays at the feet of the owner...

[Lifetime]

The lack of organizational depth falls on Reagins and Dipoto. The high priced FA's fall on the GMs as well. Arte makes the funds available and is willing to use his personality and charisma to lure the big names, but blaming him for these acquisitions is misguided. Of course he looks at the financial return and PR of the big names when green lighting these deals but to allude that these acquisitions are merely to feed some big splash fetish rather than a means of trying to improve the team is again misguided. 

[Glen]

The lack of organizational depth falls on Reagins and Dipoto. The high priced FA's fall on the GMs as well. Arte makes the funds available and is willing to use his personality and charisma to lure the big names, but blaming him for these acquisitions is misguided. Of course he looks at the financial return and PR of the big names when green lighting these deals but to allude that these acquisitions are merely to feed some big splash fetish rather than a means of trying to improve the team is again misguided. 

 

 

 

I think Pujols and Hamilton are 50/50 between Moreno and Dipoto.  Arte knows the business aspect of it and wanting the big names, and as many have stated it seemed reasonable to expect Pujols to have about three good years left in him, which would be great for business.  It was the signing of Hamilton, in retrospect, that makes me think it was more Moreno than Dipoto.  We certainly didn't need another outfielder after last year, especially a big-name high-money outfielder.  However, we did need to make a splash after a dismal season.  Hamilton was that splash.

 

This offseason will be interesting, for sure.  Nobody is going to get excited if we sign some big-name player. 

[Chili83]

I know this thread is just some bullshit rant, but I had steadfastly maintained on the "old" board and many others, a demand for middle relief/closer. 47 blown saves in two years (32 of which were converted into losses) and they shoot their wad on a couple of wrong-side-of-30 sluggers? Spread those dead presidents over a relief core akin to the one in '09. You already had Kendrys, Trumbo, Trout and Segura on the way; dumping Napoli, etc. But this franchise is famous for high-priced mistakes (Reggie in his twilight, dumping Parker for Bichette, Langston had one good year, the great Moo experiment....).

 

My jagoffedness lies elsewhere.

[Angel Oracle]

Standing ovation YK!

 

I couldn't have said it any better myself, although I will only disagree with the name change.   I liked it, but not because of battling the Raviners.   I liked getting back to the original roots of the team in 1961.  

I don't care if the players are stars or not, just that they can come together as a team like the 2002 team did.

I couldn't give any less of a bleep about the Raviners either, Arte Moreno.    Just focus on your own franchise, and run it right!

 

How many star studded teams have won WS titles going back in time?

There are very few Big Red Machines, and even they relied on chemistry guys like Concepcion, Geronimo, Griffey Sr., etc. to support the stars like Bench, Perez, Rose, Foster and Morgan.

 

As far as blame, Reagins gets the most.   He took a solid franchise and in 4 years broke it down through too many bad acquisitions and trades and ignorance on how to buld a solid farm system and foreign scouting. 

Dipoto essentially inherited Reagins' mess.

Whoever between Moreno and Dipoto most advocated for Hackilton was being real stupid!

 

All of that being said, the "of Anaheim" part of the name is stupid!   

[Lifetime]

I think Pujols and Hamilton are 50/50 between Moreno and Dipoto.  Arte knows the business aspect of it and wanting the big names, and as many have stated it seemed reasonable to expect Pujols to have about three good years left in him, which would be great for business.  It was the signing of Hamilton, in retrospect, that makes me think it was more Moreno than Dipoto.  We certainly didn't need another outfielder after last year, especially a big-name high-money outfielder.  However, we did need to make a splash after a dismal season.  Hamilton was that splash.

 

This offseason will be interesting, for sure.  Nobody is going to get excited if we sign some big-name player. 

Hamilton was still a Dipoto move. And if he had come in and performed at a reasonable expectation, no one would really be complaining. Torii was already gone, a mistake IMO but I digress, so yes there was a need for an outfielder. A big name outfielder? I don't know why that matters. Of the outfielders available, I think it was reasonable to expect Hamilton would be a good fit. He certainly hasn't lived up to those reasonable expectations that's for sure. But he is someone Dipoto targeted if Greinke was not signed. If he had been, I don't doubt they would have gone after a cheaper OF solution or even stayed in house. 

[Futch Winkleman]

 

Awesome.

 

Someone needs to bump this thread next time yk goes on a grammar tirade.

[ettin]

Buying a team, especially a decade ago, and having the value increase greatly isn't an indication of great business sense. Virtually every team in every sport has had similar increases.

 

True but there are virtually no teams in baseball that have zero debt, like the Angels. THAT is smart business.

[Angel Oracle]

I can't wait until Miguel Cabrera becomes a free agent in 2016, and we sign him for 10 years/$300 million.

Don't worry, the Cano signing for 8 years/$200 million will be coming this off-season.    And of course on cue, he will hit say .280 with an .820 OPS the first season.   In other words, just a little upgrade from Kendrick for 2.5 times the yearly salary and double the contract length.

[yk9001]

Awesome.

 

Someone needs to bump this thread next time yk goes on a grammar tirade.

 

Touche.

 

Unlike a lot of asswipes on this board, I don't mind pointing out when I am wrong, grammar or otherwise.

[Tyler]

Touche. Unlike a lot of asswipes on this board, I don't mind pointing out when I am wrong, grammar or otherwise.

Whoa, no need for the personal attack at lifetime.

[Lifetime]

FO shane. 

[Amazing Larry]

That gave me a laugh.

[ettin]

Just my opinion:  Arte has a serious insecurity/inferiority complex.  It first reared its head when he adopted the fake LA name - an embarrassment we haven't lived down in nine years.

 

I just don't see how you can say that without knowing the man? As far as the name change, Moreno, as others mentioned in this thread, made his fortune (fortune meaning 1 billion +) in marketing and the man understands the power of branding and product placement. Could the name change have been handled better and/or named differently? Maybe but the teams value increased significantly after that name change, so I'd tend to believe he is just a smart businessman rather than being embarrassed that the team is in Anaheim rather than LA.

 

Read his quotes at the big press conferences - usually you can find some mention of the word "Dodgers"...which is a complete red herring.  He feels he's "competing" with the joke of a franchise 35 miles up the road.

 

That joke of a franchise just sold for $2 + billion dollars. It has at top 5 payroll and has positioned itself to financially out-hustle most of the other teams in MLB. Team performance shouldn't be correlated with team financials and business savvy. So to answer your statement, yes he does have to compete with the franchise up the road that was just purchased by a group that is serious about making that team a powerhouse MLB competitor and he needs to address that and fight for the fanbase. Arte is a very smart businessman and he knows that if he doesn't aggressively promote the Angels and counter the Dodgers moves he can lose market share.

 

While taking his eye off the AL West rival 1,400 miles to the east.  Arte has never understood that winning championships will take care of just about all his problems.

 

Disagree with the first and partially agree with the second. Texas has a well developed farm system and a good core of players that will, barring some weird trades/injuries, keep them competitive for a long time and Moreno is not stupid he knows that. Our series of division championships through 2009 definitely showed Arte that winning brings the fans in and he even understood that BEFORE those division championships when he laid out big money for Vladimir Guerrero, Bartolo Colon, et. al. Your argument just doesn't carry much water in my opinion.

 

Disney gave him the cache of a freshly minted championship when he bought the franchise.  That goodwill has been whittled away to about nothing after 11 years.  High priced mistake after high priced mistake will do that.

 

Guerrero wasn't a high priced mistake? Were all of those playoff berths mistakes? You have a real selective memory when you are trying to make a point?

 

Continuing with his insecurity, he always covets high priced, big named players who made their stamp somewhere else.

 

For better or for worse, Moreno does understand that name brands can bring value. Have some been mistakes, especially recently? Yes. I wouldn't call it insecurity I would identify it more as the marketing side of his brain seeing an opportunity that happens to coincide with a performance history that indicates that player(s) would be a good fit in Anaheim. Moreno can't make them perform on the field.... that falls on the shoulders of players like Pujols and Hamilton.

 

Arte seems to be under the impression that Angel fans are actually interested in what Albert Pujols did in St. Louis, or that Blanton won a World Series with the Phillies.  Which brings us to the most bizarre, head scratching Angel billboard of all time:

 

This may be a valid point concerning Angels fans vested interest in Pujols long and storied history. All we see is a player on the decline, not a superstar, feared, middle-of-the-order bat. But again that is partially on Pujols and partially on the front office.

 

Arte's insecurity runs so deep, he's desperate to cling to any kind of winner - it doesn't make any difference to him what team they won for, and pay any price.  He pays top dollar for Pujol's boatload of MVP's in St. Louis, or Hamilton's success in Texas.  Not understanding that past results for older players does not necessarily have any correlation with future success.

 

Again I fully disagree that you can state with accuracy that Moreno is insecure. None of us really have any insight into his personality to determine that. Your last sentence does have some validity however and although I, along with several others (including you AO), wanted that feared, MOTO bat right before we signed Pujols. My initial thought after the excitement wore down was how would Albert age and he has not aged well so far (although he has had injuries). I'm thinking the Angels do need to go younger and try to get more athletic as we move forward. I'm sure that the front office looked at Pujols and performed some type of analysis on aging curves to understand how he would bring value as he ages and probably determined that it was worth the gamble  from a combined performance/marketing point-of-view. But you are correct that past performance does not necessarily correlate with future success (althoug there are certain indicators that do carry well from year to year).

 

And as a cherry on top of a crap sandwich that this organization has become, he skinflints a $25,000 raise to the most exciting young baseball player to play in a generation.

 

This I don't have a problem with. Trout is a great, young player but he is no different from any other young players when it comes to arbitration and the Collective Bargaining Agreement. You can make the argument that it might "tick" Trout off but Mike seems like a really well-mannered young man with a good head on his shoulders and the Angels will eventually offer him a very lucrative extension down the road that will pay him very well. That extension will be based off his value in arbitration which is based off of his base salary. If the Angels start giving lavish raises now they will pay even more down the road. This is a business not a prize giveaway.

 

Arte's fascination w/r/t these high priced stiffs, and his insecurity regarding playing second fiddle to the Dodgers leads me to the last point:  You idiot fans on this message board.

 

Not going to take offense because I am not an idiot, but to call people here idiots is pretty rude to be honest.

 

I've read you - trust me, I know who you are.  You cannot wait for the season to end, so you can get out your Christmas list of high priced "names".  Dammit, you guys needed a "Splash".  A "Big Name", or the offseason was a failure.  You needed to have something in the Christmas stocking.  You needed the team to be involved in negotiations.  You needed a mention on ESPN!  The hot stove league wasn't good enough for you, either.  The Angels needed to "improve" themselves at the trade deadline, as well.  Yippee!  Don't worry about the long term ramifications of trading prospects...we'll just get more free agents.   And Arte listened to the fans.

 

Unfortunately I think Reagins didn't fully appreciate your last sentence. Some here will and have argued that Dipoto shouldn't have traded for Greinke but hindsight is 20/20. I think Dipoto really does understand the value of a good trade (he did acquire Corbin and Skaggs when he was temp'ing in AZ) and I feel quite comfortable with him as the GM. NO GM makes perfect decisions and sometimes you have to go for it like he did last year.

 

Personally I hope we start a short rebuild process ASAP. The problem is that we have very few tradeable assets and/or they haven't established their full value and we would be selling low on them if we did trade them. This team still has a good core of players and it wouldn't take too much time (I'm talking next year even) to get back in the game so to speak.

[Angel Oracle]

Okay, I wanted ONE MOTO bat ONLY, knowing that Trumbo was here and Trout was arriving.

I didn't though want the org to compound the Pujols disapointing 2012 season by bringing in YET another beginning the downside of his career guy in Hackilton.

I never said I wanted a declining MOTO bat either, just a legit one.   One wasn't a lot to ask for.

 

If this org ever gets back to how it did things from 2000-2007, and incorporates into that the occasional strategic FA signing (not willy nilly) and also strategic trade that Stoneman seemingly never pulled off, then maybe this org will finally be strong again 4 years from now.

 

And again, I am hoping that Pujols and the org before the signing sat down and talked about a secretive buyout scenario should he not be able to do well enough anymore.

[markb]

"vee must get to zee bottom of this"

 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

This is the type of thread that could turn into a major day waster.  Awesome!

[Ohtaniland]

All this mess started when Scioscia forced Reagins to trade Napoli for Wells. Its been downhill ever since.

[19HALO71]

I wonder if we had a couple of clutch hits over the last week if this thread would even exist?

[HaloFan85]

Never wanted Pujols or Hamilton.  Wasn't thrilled with the Wilson signing either.

 

We had depth at 1B when we signed Pujols.  We had depth for RF to replace Hunter.  Wilson was coming off a horrible postseason performance 2011.  I'm all for signing big names if it makes sense on some levels, but none of these made much sense to me.  Wilson I could kind of understand, but not for 5 years.

[Mudville]

All this mess started when Scioscia forced Reagins to trade Napoli for Wells. Its been downhill ever since.

I think DocHalo made it pretty clear last night that it was because of Adenhardts untimely death.

[yk9001]

Someone on Travis Rodgers' show this morning said the turning point was the Morales jump at the plate.

[Amazing Larry]

I wonder if we had a couple of clutch hits over the last week if this thread would even exist?

Clutch hits? From this team? Ha!

[Angel Oracle]

More likely the Haren trade, which accelerated the farm system deterioraton; and then Wells, Pujols, Hackilton, and Grienke trade made it even worse. 

[fan_since79]

Clutch hits? From this team? Ha!

Oakland had four hits with RISP last night in the 5th inning that plated five runs.

[Stradling]

I'm guessing AO if I were to look at the old board you would have been as excited as the rest of us over the Hamilton signing.