This disaster lays at the feet of the owner...

[yk9001]

And you know nothing of media buying and marketing. NOTHING, or you wouldnt even go there.

And again, how many times has this topic been discussed. While you may not like the name as it is FOR NOW, if you cant even understand the business reasons, I dont even know anymore. Losing sucks, but come on, pay attention.

 

 

I don't buy the bullshiat about slapping the name "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" suddenly transformed a windfall of $$ for the franchise.  Like I don't believe a lot what this franchise says.

 

But for sake of argument, assume that the party line is correct.  Suddenly, the frachise has these untold hundreds of millions of dollars more.   What did the owner spend it on?  Bags of magic beans.  Over-the-hill, broken down, has-been beans.

 

P*ssed away all those millions on garbage.

[katie]

If you guys don't like the ownership there are 29 other teams you can go choose from.

[austin724]

All of these people were singing praises when they signed Pujols and Hamilton.  I guess fans want an owner who is frugal and doesn't want to win. I think they should go join the Marlins.

[katie]

Seriously, we were calling Arte "Arte Claus"

[HaloFan85]

Speak for yourselves.

[70runner]

Not all these people.  There was a reason St Louie exited the Pujols sweepstakes.  Sure there was some celebration here, but the concerns (age, decline, length of contract, etc) were addressed as well.   Even ESPN publically questions his age.  I'm convinced he is closer to 40 than 30.  Either way, he is an Albert Pujols with 8yrs left on the worst contract in MLB history.

 

As to Hamilton, nearly the last thing this team needed was another aging outfielder with a huge contract.  Stated around here frequently.  The team desperately needed pitching and the two other perpetual eyesores of the org, 3B and a catcher that can hit.  Arte jetted in to Texas to seal that catastrophe.

[m0nkey]

All of these people were singing praises when they signed Pujols and Hamilton. I guess fans want an owner who is frugal and doesn't want to win. I think they should go join the Marlins.

Well the marlins do win chips

[austin724]

Wow some of these people think they are so good at reading the future. I am sure that they all knew Pujols and Hamilton would suck. LOL!!!!

[yk9001]

Seriously, we were calling Arte "Arte Claus"

 

 

You were, I wasn't.  For 10 years on this board, I've ripped on all you fans who clamor for the offseason Gift O Plenty.  You got it.  AND PLENTY OF ESPN MENTIONS, TOO!!!  THEY TALKED ABOUT US ON AROUND THE HORN!

[yk9001]

You know who liked the Pujols signing?  Colin Cowherd.

[Docwaukee]

I love that Arte is willing to spend to improve the team and the franchise.  That is a good thing.

 

Players can be overpaid on a personal level yet bring value to a franchise.  Yet, still need to be at least fairly productive on the field.

 

There are a bunch of these types of players.

 

When you barely get replacement level production from a player, whatever potential marketing value they may have is lost. 

 

They don't have to stop spending money, they have to stop spending it poorly. 

[yk9001]

I love that Arte is willing to spend to improve the team and the franchise.  That is a good thing.

 

Players can be overpaid on a personal level yet bring value to a franchise.  Yet, still need to be at least fairly productive on the field.

 

There are a bunch of these types of players.

 

When you barely get replacement level production from a player, whatever potential marketing value they may have is lost. 

 

They don't have to stop spending money, they have to stop spending it poorly. 

 

 

Here's the marketing cache Pujols brings to this franchise:

 

http://thebiglead.com/2013/08/21/albert-pujols-shut-down-still-owed-212-million-is-this-the-worst-active-contract-in-sports/

[mtangelsfan]

I think blame goes to everybody.  I think Arte has chosen poorly twice in a row on GM's.  I think he was so willing to spend what was necessary to bring another championship to Anaheim that he lost sight of how it was won in the first place.  I think the GM's have been awful.  I think the coaching has been subpar.  I think the players, some of who are supposed to be the best players in the world, have mailed it in.  I think everyone in this organization best take a look in the mirror because they all hold responsibility for this debacle.

 

I would still rather have an owner who wants to win versus owners who are just out to make a buck. 

 

Still harping about the name change is pretty dumb.  It is what it is. Almost nobody is even talking about it anymore.

[tdawg87]

Wow some of these people think they are so good at reading the future. I am sure that they all knew Pujols and Hamilton would suck. LOL!!!!

You and storm should get married.

[Angel Oracle]

All of these people were singing praises when they signed Pujols and Hamilton.  I guess fans want an owner who is frugal and doesn't want to win. I think they should go join the Marlins.

No, but it is prudent to not sign 32 year-olds to big money in this post-PEDs era.

32 is the new 34/35.

Stoneman had it right, signing a good FA when he improved the team long term.

GMJ was really the only bigtime wrong move by Stoneman.

 

I do remember saying that Stoneman's one weakness was almost never making trades (outside of the Appier and Fullmer trades before 2002).

But that didn't mean I wanted a big splash EVERY SEASON, or to sign aging players to big contracts without addressing the real need.  

[Docwaukee]

I think blame goes to everybody.  I think Arte has chosen poorly twice in a row on GM's.  I think he was so willing to spend what was necessary to bring another championship to Anaheim that he lost sight of how it was won in the first place.  I think the GM's have been awful.  I think the coaching has been subpar.  I think the players, some of who are supposed to be the best players in the world, have mailed it in.  I think everyone in this organization best take a look in the mirror because they all hold responsibility for this debacle.

 

I would still rather have an owner who wants to win versus owners who are just out to make a buck. 

 

Still harping about the name change is pretty dumb.  It is what it is. Almost nobody is even talking about it anymore.

 

I agree that everyone is to blame, however, I do wonder what the general philosophy and directive was to the last two GMs. 

 

Stoneman set this franchise up to be a perennial contender yet couldn't pull the trigger on that one piece that would put a playoff team over the edge and he was ousted because of that. 

 

This makes me think that the directive was to do whatever you could to bring a championship to the franchise in the next couple of years. 

 

Reagins started off ok with the addition of Tex.  ie he made a playoff team even better.   He had the right idea for the Kaz trade the following season but he picked the wrong player.  That and the oh so close heartbreak of the 2009 playoffs created a sense of urgency that led to the haren trade and then pure panic that led to the wells trade. 

 

Jerry was brought in yet under the same philosophy that it's championship or bust.  Hence the Wilson and Pujols signings and the Frieri and Ianetta trades and then when those didn't work it's back to short term panic that led to Greinke, Hamilton and Blanton. 

 

The 'championship or bust' mentality led the team away from the idea that making a trade or signing a high paid FA are supposed to be able to make a playoff team better.  Not to make a mediocre team a borderline playoff squad while mortgaging the future. 

 

The best trade or FA signing in the last several years (Tex) was really the only one that was not performed out of 'necessity'.

 

Because of pure urgency or panic, we have lost:

Sean Rodriguez (probably makes the callaspo trade unnecessary)

Alex Torres

Will Smith

Tyler Skaggs

Pat Corbin

Jean Segura

John Hellweg

Ariel Pena

Alexei Amarista

Donn Roach

Tyler Chatwood

 

Three major league rotation arms, two major league pen arms, a starting major league shortstop, two fringe infield starters, and three AA/AAA starters than have done reasonably well in the minor and could be providing either starting or bullpen depth currently. 

 

8 of those guys could currently be on our major league roster. 

 

So yes, I think the blame is for everyone, but it starts from the top down. 

[mtangelsfan]

A GM worth his salt has to be able to reign in the owner and talk sense into him.  If they can't, their own reputation is damaged. 

[Angel Oracle]

The good news is, some of the right players are in place.

If they change the coaching staff and stay away from big money acquisitions for a while, and then find that one position player spark like what Gibson was to the 1988 Raviners, one additional starting pitcher, and one reliever/mentor, maybe the rebuild will only be 2-3 years in length, still soon enough to be while Trout and Weaver are still here.

 

Now Pujols and Hackilton, look at yourselves in the freaking mirror, and vow to NEVER, EEEEVER let 2013 happen again!

[mtangelsfan]

See, I don't agree with that AO.  I think only Trout and Weaver are really good mlb players on this team.

 

The rest rate from above average down to bottom of the barrell.  There is a huge void on this team and gunning for championships year after year have finally taken its toll.  The chickens have come home to roost.

 

To me, the best to hope for is to do everything you can to re-sign Trout and stock up for three years in the future

[mtangelsfan]

Or to put it in better terms for you...........

 

The Angels "Missed it by 'that' much"

[yk9001]

I agree that everyone is to blame, however, I do wonder what the general philosophy and directive was to the last two GMs. 

 

Stoneman set this franchise up to be a perennial contender yet couldn't pull the trigger on that one piece that would put a playoff team over the edge and he was ousted because of that. 

 

This makes me think that the directive was to do whatever you could to bring a championship to the franchise in the next couple of years. 

 

Reagins started off ok with the addition of Tex.  ie he made a playoff team even better.   He had the right idea for the Kaz trade the following season but he picked the wrong player.  That and the oh so close heartbreak of the 2009 playoffs created a sense of urgency that led to the haren trade and then pure panic that led to the wells trade. 

 

Jerry was brought in yet under the same philosophy that it's championship or bust.  Hence the Wilson and Pujols signings and the Frieri and Ianetta trades and then when those didn't work it's back to short term panic that led to Greinke, Hamilton and Blanton. 

 

The 'championship or bust' mentality led the team away from the idea that making a trade or signing a high paid FA are supposed to be able to make a playoff team better.  Not to make a mediocre team a borderline playoff squad while mortgaging the future. 

 

The best trade or FA signing in the last several years (Tex) was really the only one that was not performed out of 'necessity'.

 

Because of pure urgency or panic, we have lost:

Sean Rodriguez (probably makes the callaspo trade unnecessary)

Alex Torres

Will Smith

Tyler Skaggs

Pat Corbin

Jean Segura

John Hellweg

Ariel Pena

Alexei Amarista

Donn Roach

Tyler Chatwood

 

Three major league rotation arms, two major league pen arms, a starting major league shortstop, two fringe infield starters, and three AA/AAA starters than have done reasonably well in the minor and could be providing either starting or bullpen depth currently. 

 

8 of those guys could currently be on our major league roster. 

 

So yes, I think the blame is for everyone, but it starts from the top down. 

 

 

And who has paid?

 

The director of scouting (Bane).  Two GMs.  And a hitting coach.

[Docwaukee]

A GM worth his salt has to be able to reign in the owner and talk sense into him.  If they can't, their own reputation is damaged. 

I think the Halos have purposefully hired GMs who have indicated that they would follow the philosophy of trying to get a championship trophy in arte's hands as soon as possible. 

 

I think the reason stoneman was let go was because he tried to impart the perennial contender theory as opposed to going 'all-in'.

 

It's easy to say that, but in reality he has a billionaire owner who is signing everyone's paycheck.  Trying to 'talk sense into him' is essentially telling him that you are not going to attempt to do what you were hired for.  I can't imagine that would sit well with Arte. 

[mtangelsfan]

But doing what the billionaire says made Reagins basically unhireable and Dipoto is on his way to the same place. 

[Docwaukee]

But doing what the billionaire says made Reagins basically unhireable and Dipoto is on his way to the same place. 

yep.  no doubt in my mind that the powers that be for this franchise sat in a room and discussed the long term repercussions of signing Albert and Josh and when Arte looked at JD and asked if this would make them legitimate championship contenders, he said yes.  What Dipoto did year 1 is much more forgivable than what he did year two.

 

Yr 1, he went all in and after it didn't work.

Yr 2, he had to rebuild an entire pitching staff in one off season and at this point, he should have applied the brakes. 

 

But he was brought in to build and immediate winner so that's what he tried to do and it could cost him his job. 

 

If Arte let's Dipoto keep his job for one more year it will speak volumes to me about how much influence he's had on these recent decisions. 

[Angel Oracle]

See, I don't agree with that AO.  I think only Trout and Weaver are really good mlb players on this team.

 

The rest rate from above average down to bottom of the barrell.  There is a huge void on this team and gunning for championships year after year have finally taken its toll.  The chickens have come home to roost.

 

To me, the best to hope for is to do everything you can to re-sign Trout and stock up for three years in the future

I don't necessarily disagree with you, MT.

The Halos do have a significant number of players at the next level or so down from Trout and Weaver, including Trumbo, Bourjos, Wilson, Kendrick, Aybar, Vargas, of course Pujols and Hamilton (even if at a level down a little from their 2011 seasons) and maybe getting there by a year or so from now Richards and Conger. 

Of course, conspicuous by its' absence in this list is the bullpen.   Right now, there really isn't a proven person down there. 

 

Look at the teams contending.   The great majority of them have GOOD bullpens.   That is where the biggest improvement by far will have to be made in the next 2-3 years.

 

It will be interesting to see what will happen in 2014 if: a) a new manager/coaching staff comes in, a starting pitcher and a couple of relievers are brought in plus Burnett gets healthy plus DDLR, Coello, and Kohn develop further and Morin and Alvarez can get up here at some point, and c) injuries go back to normal (say 8-10 DL stints and not nearly as many games lost).  

 

A lot of questions to be sure

 

Also, someone needs to tell Arte Moreno that once in a while is fine to be all in.   But, you can't do it every season.   At some point, you have to take a step back to take 2 steps forward.   Unfortunately, albeit partly through injuries, it seems like they took 3-4 steps backwards in 2013.