2020 Election

[Rico]

8 hours ago, Blarg said:

Director Wilkie wasn't mentioned in your quote and only one area chapter ordered the medicine independently. This is only one center of hundreds and not a mandate for all veterans centers from the V.A. Administration. 

It appears you cant differentiate between individual decisions and those that are chain of command.

This was only on nursing home (that we know of) but VA hospitals were also giving this drug to their patients. The US government bought up boatloads of this drug to the point where people that actually needed it couldn't get it.  Everyone in charge let these people down. 

[Blarg]

32 minutes ago, Rico said:

The president was at the forefront in pushing this particular drug.  Then the VA uses vets as Guinea pigs to test it without their consent. 

Bottom line this shouldn't have happened. 

Bottom line, you assigned blame to the presidency that had nothing to do with the purchase or administration of this drug. This was an independent action. 

[Jason]

15 minutes ago, wopphil said:

The thing is, most Trump supporters don’t support Trump because he is the lesser of two evils. They support him because they believe in him and his message. How often do you hear a Republican say “I despise him, but he is better than the other options.”  I never hear than sentiment. His supporters truly like him. 

At some point a decent person needs to say “enough is enough.”  Choose character and ethics over supposed political position.

And really, what is it about Trump that is “Republican?” He isn’t pro liberties, other than the 2a. He isn’t for limited government or less spending. He doesn’t champion the rights of the disenfranchised (as Lincoln did). He isn’t tough on Russia.  He certainly isn’t the candidate of morality (remember when the Republicans impeached Clinton for lying about sex? Those hypocrite sure had their morals in line). Honestly, what is there to like about him?

He’s passed more gun control than Obama ever did

[AngelsLakersFan]

33 minutes ago, wopphil said:

The thing is, most Trump supporters don’t support Trump because he is the lesser of two evils. They support him because they believe in him and his message. How often do you hear a Republican say “I despise him, but he is better than the other options.”  I never hear than sentiment. His supporters truly like him. 

This was a common sentiment during the 2016 election. Quite a large number of vocal Trump voters claimed that he was simply the lesser of two evils.

So now in November 2020 we get to find out if those people were full of shit.

[Rico]

13 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Bottom line, you assigned blame to the presidency that had nothing to do with the purchase or administration of this drug. This was an independent action. 

Why were government agencies buying up a drug they had no proof worked for what they were buying it for?  Why was this given to vets without telling them how dangerous it was?  Why weren't their families notified of this dangerous treatment being used at the nursing home?

It was a complete failure of leadership. 

[Jason]

4 minutes ago, Rico said:

Why were government agencies buying up a drug they had no proof worked for what they were buying it for?  Why was this given to vets without telling them how dangerous it was?  Why weren't their families notified of this dangerous treatment being used at the nursing home?

It was a complete failure of leadership. 

Asshole doctors 

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

There is always a gap between campaign talk, actual presidential goals, attempted goals, and realized policy. It's hard to separate those.

Trump has successfully implemented his immigration policies, destabilized our international partnerships, and affected free trade policy. None of these were in line with Republican policy previously. He's also been very hot and cold with the military. He's seemed to want to reduce our military footprint around the globe (not a republican idea) ceding ground to Russia, while simultaneously being significantly more aggressive towards Iran.

That’s fair, not everything is the same down the line.  But largely he’s been pretty similar in my view.  Let’s not forget he was also blustering about possible military action in Venezuela.  We’ve tried to initiate a coup there.  Pitiful results.  More successful in Bolivia, where it was a straight up coup that I guarantee was steered by the United States.  So I’ll give you that some things have been different with immigration.  More aggressively right wing populist.  But with Trump and the military, maybe the targets are different but again.  It’s largely the same.  I’ll even say that he does seem maybe a little more hesitant to commit to serious military action.  But that has to be tempered by what you noted with Iran.  He took an extraordinarily risky course of action with the Sulimani assassination.  So hot and cold is a good description.  That all said I think it’s fair to say that broadly it’s more of the same.  Particularly when it comes to defense spending.  

 

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Also I don't think Republicans have been big on under staffing government agencies or even defunding federal departments. For the most part defunding social programs is more of a boogie man talking point than any real change. For the most part these programs continue to grow.

Trump has made meaningful cuts to many a vast array of social programs.  More aggressively probably than Bush.  And Bush also gutted large portions of social welfare when he pushed his tax cut.  And don’t even get me started on Reagan.  The Democrats have as well.  But not with the same vigor as Republican administrations.  As far as eliminating Government agencies or significantly shrinking them.  Again, Trump has been more aggressive but is just doing the stuff that the GOP has been talking about for decades.  It’s not really new imo.  So while Bush did enlarge the defense aspect of the federal government.  DHS, for example and obviously all the war spending and the bureaucracy that went along with that.  He also sought to privatize vast parts of the civil service.  He tried to privatize social security.  So, while I maybe worded it in an overly simple way, Trump imo has just continued down the road that the conservatives on both sides of the aisle have been on for the last 40 years.  

Edited July 9, 2020 by UndertheHalo

[mtangelsfan]

1 hour ago, wopphil said:

The thing is, most Trump supporters don’t support Trump because he is the lesser of two evils. They support him because they believe in him and his message. How often do you hear a Republican say “I despise him, but he is better than the other options.”  I never hear than sentiment. His supporters truly like him. 

At some point a decent person needs to say “enough is enough.”  Choose character and ethics over supposed political position.

And really, what is it about Trump that is “Republican?” He isn’t pro liberties, other than the 2a. He isn’t for limited government or less spending. He doesn’t champion the rights of the disenfranchised (as Lincoln did). He isn’t tough on Russia.  He certainly isn’t the candidate of morality (remember when the Republicans impeached Clinton for lying about sex? Those hypocrite sure had their morals in line). Honestly, what is there to like about him?

Trump supporters are way different than Trump voters.  You have to give those people something else to vote for.

[AngelsLakersFan]

43 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

That’s fair, not everything is the same down the line.  But largely he’s been pretty similar in my view.  Let’s not forget he was also blustering about possible military action in Venezuela.  We’ve tried to initiate a coup there.  Pitiful results.  More successful in Bolivia, where it was a straight up coup that I guarantee was steered by the United States.  So I’ll give you that some things have been different with immigration.  More aggressively right wing populist.  But with Trump and the military, maybe the targets are different but again.  It’s largely the same.  I’ll even say that he does seem maybe a little more hesitant to commit to serious military action.  But that has to be tempered by what you noted with Iran.  He took an extraordinarily risky course of action with the Sulimani assassination.  So hot and cold is a good description.  That all said I think it’s fair to say that broadly it’s more of the same.  Particularly when it comes to defense spending.  

 

Trump has made meaningful cuts to many a vast array of social programs.  More aggressively probably than Bush.  And Bush also gutted large portions of social welfare when he pushed his tax cut.  And don’t even get me started on Reagan.  The Democrats have as well.  But not with the same vigor as Republican administrations.  As far as eliminating Government agencies or significantly shrinking them.  Again, Trump has been more aggressive but is just doing the stuff that the GOP has been talking about for decades.  It’s not really new imo.  So while Bush did enlarge the defense aspect of the federal government.  DHS, for example and obviously all the war spending and the bureaucracy that went along with that.  He also sought to privatize vast parts of the civil service.  He tried to privatize social security.  So, while I maybe worded it in an overly simple way, Trump imo has just continued down the road that the conservatives on both sides of the aisle have been on for the last 40 years.  

I think Trump is more a realization of the cartoon villain the left has painted just about every Republican as in my lifetime. For all the talk of cutting social warfare programs Bush was far more liberal than Clinton on this issue, even pushing through the biggest ever expansion of socialized medicine in this country (medicare part d) before Obama (consider also that Romney basically invented Obamacare). It's also not fair to categorize proposed privatization with cuts because the goal is not to cut anything (though it opens up that risk).

The left talked about Bush in much the same way they talk about Trump now. In many ways I think one could argue that they normalized those extreme positions that were not in the mainstream on the right by acting like they were. I don't think it's crazy to consider that Trump is not just a reaction to Obama but rather an actual manifestation of left's own nightmares propelled into power through their own arrogance.

[tennischmp]

41 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Trump supporters are way different than Trump voters.  You have to give those people something else to vote for.

Yea let’s just forget that there are plenty of republican candidates in the primaries and you guys chose trump. There was also an option of nominating someone else this year and again you chose trump. Republicans have no one but themselves to blame from the lasting impact on the party from a trump presidency.

[UndertheHalo]

14 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I think Trump is more of the realization of the cartoon villain the left has painted just about every Republican as in my lifetime. For all the talk of cutting social warfare programs Bush was far more liberal than Clinton on this issue, even pushing through the biggest ever expansion of socialized medicine in this country (medicare part d) before Obama (consider also that Romney basically invented Obamacare). It's also not fair to categorize proposed privatization with cuts because the goal is not to cut anything (though it opens up that risk).

The left talked about Bush in much the same way they talk about Trump now. In many ways I think one could argue that they normalized those extreme positions that were not in the mainstream on the right by acting like they were. I don't think it's crazy to consider that Trump is not just a reaction to Obama but rather an actual manifestation of left's own nightmares propelled into power through their own arrogance.

I don’t think we disagree that much.  The wording we’re using is different.  I’ll just leave it at the right wing in this country has steadily implemented its ideology over the last 40 years.  And now, we’re at the to date most fully implemented version of it.  And if Biden gets elected he’ll maybe temper some of Trumps stuff, but in doing so he’ll just set in concrete those movements to the right.  Just like Obama did when he made drone strikes “lawful” or when he literally took the Heritage Foundations health care plan.  Republicans move 10 steps to the right and a democrat comes in and maybe moves 4 steps back.  Then another republican comes in again moves 10 more steps to the right again.  So on and so on.  The effect is a constant rightward swing.  That’s where we are.  That’s why I won’t support Biden.  

[UndertheHalo]

10 minutes ago, tennischmp said:

Yea let’s just forget that there are plenty of republican candidates in the primaries and you guys chose trump. There was also an option of nominating someone else this year and again you chose trump. Republicans have no one but themselves to blame from the lasting impact on the party from a trump presidency.

Trump wasn’t even the worst of that batch.  What do you think President Ted Cruz would be like ?

Edited July 9, 2020 by UndertheHalo

[Lou]

12 minutes ago, tennischmp said:

Yea let’s just forget that there are plenty of republican candidates in the primaries and you guys chose trump. There was also an option of nominating someone else this year and again you chose trump. Republicans have no one but themselves to blame from the lasting impact on the party from a trump presidency.

Trump won because you chose Hillary.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

 I’ll just leave it at the right wing in this country has steadily implemented its ideology over the last 40 years.  And now, we’re at the to date most fully implemented version of it. 

If this is true I think it might support my theory that the portion of this country that still considers themselves on the 'right' side in our current political climate is rapidly shrinking down to irrelevance. It's to the point that Republicans are almost exclusively religious whackos and white supremests. There will be a bounce back or a realignment soon because the current position is untenable beyond the next few years as Trump supporters slowly die off due to covid or general old age. 

[mtangelsfan]

28 minutes ago, tennischmp said:

Yea let’s just forget that there are plenty of republican candidates in the primaries and you guys chose trump. There was also an option of nominating someone else this year and again you chose trump. Republicans have no one but themselves to blame from the lasting impact on the party from a trump presidency.

Okay

[tennischmp]

19 minutes ago, Lou said:

Trump won because you chose Hillary.

Why was he nominated in the first place? Did that have something to do with Hillary? 

[tennischmp]

The republican way blame someone else for trumps Presidency and his failures  

[Kevin]

Seems like the logical choice for the Republicans in 2016 was Rand Paul (he doesn’t quite live up to his father but he’ll do) based off of how they preach about small government, reducing spending and upholding the constitution. But when the time came, they failed to uphold what they supposedly love.

[St1ck]

34 minutes ago, Lou said:

Trump won because you chose Hillary.

Not me. I was Martin O'Malley ride or die.

[Lou]

26 minutes ago, st1ckboy said:

Not me. I was Martin O'Malley ride or die

R.I.P.

[St1ck]

8 minutes ago, Lou said:

R.I.P.

Nope, still riding sir.

[wopphil]

3 hours ago, mtangelsfan said:

Trump supporters are way different than Trump voters.  You have to give those people something else to vote for.

There was a much better option in 2016, and there is a better option in 2020. If someone can’t see that, they are most likely a Trump supporter.

[Lou]

1 hour ago, st1ckboy said:

Nope, still riding sir.

I know.

Ride In Peace. 

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, st1ckboy said:

Nope, still riding sir.

Gross.

[St1ck]

18 minutes ago, Lou said:

I know.

Ride In Peace. 

MO'M would have ushered in an era of world peace. If only people would have listened.