Arte: "We need to win" for Eppler to get a new deal

[UndertheHalo]

Also, Moreno said their were other reasons beyond just impatience for the Stripling/Pederson deal getting nixed.  Which seemed obvious to me.  Who knows what those reasons are.  I’m not going to speculate on it anymore.  I’ll just say that Stripling would have been helpful, but I don’t believe that he fits the top of the rotation gap where the Angels really have an issue.  Root for the Rockies to blow ass.  That’s my position on this. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by UndertheHalo

[Mark68]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

McCourt is interested in buying the team

What about Loria? I'm sure that Manfred can make another "owner swap" happen, right?

[Mark68]

1 hour ago, Reveille1984 said:

We're in the second biggest U.S. media market with a top five valued MLB TV contract.  It's not like Arte is the only potential owner of the franchise that would spend dough.

His inability to step aside and let his underlings do their job is probably one of his biggest downsides, and it shows with the direction the team has gone in the past decade.

Arte "Jerry Jones" Moreno

[UndertheHalo]

You guys know that it’s possible and even likely that the Angels next owner will be worse then Moreno.  I don’t think Arte is bad at all. 

[Hubs]

48 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

The Twins needed pitching, despite already having an ace in Berrios, got Maeda.

The Rangers needed pitching despite having 2 of last season's best starters in Lynn and Minor, got Kluber and Gibson

The Phillies needed pitching despite already having an ace in Nola, got Wheeler

The White Sox needed pitching despite already having an ace in Giolito and several of the most talented pitching prospects, got Keuchel.

The A's needed pitching and are bringing up two of the most talented pitching prospects in the league in Luzardo and Puk.

The Angels need pitching, and have no ace or anything above a #4 starter sans what will end up being 15 Ohtani starts, and got... Teheran and Bundy.

Canning, Bundy, Teheran, Heaney, and Sandoval is not a terrible rotation. Is it a top rotation? No... but they're all basically #2-#4 guys.

You can't rank pitchers based on what they did last season, pitching is much more volatile than hitting. No one would've picked Lance Lynn or Mike Minor to have 7+ WAR seasons in 2019 coming off their 2018 seasons (3.7 WAR and 0.9 WAR). You have to look at their last few years to get a sense of what they'll do.

I think Canning is going to take a leap forward, he was easily the best pitcher on the staff as a rookie last year, and he had a terrible pitching coach, and was a rookie.

I also think Teheran is going to be basically the same guy he's been his entire career in Atlanta, and that is basically a #3, who out performs his peripherals. I wouldn't be surprised with a 3.5 to 4.1 ERA. but he's gonna make 30 starts and give them 180+ innings.

Bundy is going to surprise people and will I think lead the starters in ERA. (Not including Ohtani). He's gonna shave a run off, and be in the low 3's.

Heaney will be back to 2018 form.

Sandoval will be a solid 4/5, pitching to near Bundy 2019 numbers as the 5th guy.

 

And we're likely getting Pena back to start the season too.

[Docwaukee]

In a vacuum, Eppler had a fairly shit off season last year.  Granted, he didn't damage the future of the team but if I'm the guy writing the checks, I'm probably not very happy about my GM essentially pissing away about 50m in payroll last year.  And by pissing it away, I mean literally getting absolutely nothing for that.  Plus, the guys he chose as manager and pitching coach got replaced after 1yr.  And this year it took your 2019 first round draft pick to offload another bad contract.  

Body of work is why Billy is still here but at some point, that has to translate to wins at the major league level and the money spent on that has to be put to good use.  Every GM has financial/eval missteps like the occasional Valbuena, Espinosa, or Nolasco.  

I am sure Arte is excited about guys like Adell and Marsh as well as the rest of the rebuilt farm system and how the team has some financial ability to add without causing too much pain but I can totally see how he's looking for some payoff for his investment at the major league level.  

I don't know how the discussions go, but is it such that Eppler opts for guys like Teheran and Bundy over multi-year commitments to Keuchel or Ryu that Arte is willing to make?

Those are very important decisions 

All the infrastructure and foundation level improvements are not lost on me but at some point, it needs to show up at the major league level.  The team as constructed should be good for about 85+ wins.  If poor performance leads to fewer than that, then maybe it is time to re-evaluate whether Billy is the right guy for the job.  

[Pancake Bear]

1 hour ago, UndertheHalo said:

Also, Moreno said their were other reasons beyond just impatience for the Stripling/Pederson deal getting nixed.  Which seemed obvious to me.  Who knows what those reasons are.  I’m not going to speculate on it anymore.  I’ll just say that Stripling would have been helpful, but I don’t believe that he fits the top of the rotation gap where the Angels really have an issue.  Root for the Rockies to blow ass.  That’s my position on this. 

Stripling >> Gray

[UndertheHalo]

9 minutes ago, Pancake Bear said:

Stripling >> Gray

Wrong. 

[Rally Gorilla]

5 hours ago, Dochalo said:

All the infrastructure and foundation level improvements are not lost on me but at some point, it needs to show up at the major league level.  The team as constructed should be good for about 85+ wins.  If poor performance leads to fewer than that, then maybe it is time to re-evaluate whether Billy is the right guy for the job.  

Couldn't disagree more.    Eppler has done some really fantastic things to bring the team back from the dead while giving us a shot at being playoff team at the same time.   Arte tells Eppler  "win now or lose your job!".....right after he nixed a deal that would have helped us win now.   A deal that would not have hurt the team's future.   Sorry, IMHO Arte is the problem.    

The only consistent winner over the last decade has been Arte's net worth.   Yeah for that, I guess.

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Couldn't disagree more.    Eppler has done some really fantastic things to bring the team back from the dead while giving us a shot at being playoff team at the same time.   Arte tells Eppler  "win now or lose your job!".....right after he nixed a deal that would have helped us win now.   A deal that would not have hurt the teams future.   Sorry, IMHO Arte is the problem.    

The only consistent winner over the last decade has been Arte's net worth.   Yeah for that, I guess.

Yea well Arte can’t be fired.  So if he’s the problem there’s zero solution. 

[Rally Gorilla]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yea well Arte can’t be fired.  So if he’s the problem there’s zero solution. 

Yep.   Unless he cashes out....which I don't see happening.   I guess he could learn to stop f'ing things up by supporting only high PR moves, put his ego in check,  and let the GM build a balanced team....but it sure doesn't seem like things are heading in that direction.   

[Dtwncbad]

Jesus.  If Arte didn’t explicitly say this team needs to actually win now in 2020, the Arte haters would say all he cares about is selling 3 million tickets, furious he wasn’t focused on winning and winning now.

 

[ettin]

1 hour ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Couldn't disagree more.    Eppler has done some really fantastic things to bring the team back from the dead while giving us a shot at being playoff team at the same time.   Arte tells Eppler  "win now or lose your job!".....right after he nixed a deal that would have helped us win now.   A deal that would not have hurt the team's future.   Sorry, IMHO Arte is the problem.    

The only consistent winner over the last decade has been Arte's net worth.   Yeah for that, I guess.

You get mad at a supposed deal that didn't happen yet completely ignore the fact that he spent $245M to bring the best third baseman in baseball to the Angels for the next 7 years?

That is a weird expectation.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Couldn't disagree more.    Eppler has done some really fantastic things to bring the team back from the dead while giving us a shot at being playoff team at the same time.   Arte tells Eppler  "win now or lose your job!".....right after he nixed a deal that would have helped us win now.   A deal that would not have hurt the team's future.   Sorry, IMHO Arte is the problem.    

The only consistent winner over the last decade has been Arte's net worth.   Yeah for that, I guess.

what do you disagree with?  that Eppler should be held somewhat accountable for the success of the major league club?  

ok.  

[Rally Gorilla]

22 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Jesus.  If Arte didn’t explicitly say this team needs to actually win now in 2020, the Arte haters would say all he cares about is selling 3 million tickets, furious he wasn’t focused on winning and winning now.

 

He just said Eppler needs to win now to renew his contract....after nixing a deal that would have helped us win now w/o sacrificing the team's future.       IMHO, he screws things up by making big PR spash moves, then getting rediculously rigid and cheap when it comes to less flashy moves.     It has improved his net worth.....but the team hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years.       Haters?   That's your wording.

[beatlesrule]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

ERA isn't the best measure of what to expect moving forward.  I'd argue it's the worst.

Had the Angels had a top 100 RP the Twins wanted, I'd have given it to them.   

How do you measure pitchers then exactly? War is also a highly debated way of evaluating a pitcher. If era and whip are not important, how in the world do you know if a pitcher is good or not? If he has an era of 2.02, that doesn't mean he's good or ace material??

[Rally Gorilla]

9 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

what do you disagree with?  that Eppler should be held somewhat accountable for the success of the major league club?  

ok.  

I think I said what I disagree with.   Who said Eppler shouldn't be accountable?       I think he's done a fantastic job in spite of Arte's screwing up the team.     Arte forces big PR splash moves to sell tickets and get huge TV contracts....then he won't spend even a small percent of his gains to clean up the mess when guys like Hamilton crash and burn.    He also won't spend on little moves when we need it to get balance....I guess that doesn't fit his advertising mentality.   And threatening Eppler's job unless he "wins now," right after nixing a deal that would  have helped that.....is unbelievable.

[Docwaukee]

6 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

He just said Eppler needs to win now to renew his contract....after nixing a deal that would have helped us win now w/o sacrificing the team's future.       IMHO, he screws things up by making big PR spash moves, then getting rediculously rigid and cheap when it comes to less flashy moves.     It has improved his net worth.....but the team hasn't won a playoff game in 10 years.       Haters?   That's your wording.

Eppler's moves have to work at some point.  Do you think Arte was responsible for Cahill, Harvey, Lucroy and Allen?  

I am not saying that is all Eppler should be judged by, by it's part of what needs to be considered.  

FTR, I want Eppler extended.  I think he's a very good GM and I'd agree that he's had limited opportunities.  But performance at the major league level is ultimately what's gonna make or break his ability to stay employed with the halos.  Not totally fair considering his circumstances but I can see where he needs to be held accountable for that.    

[Rally Gorilla]

20 minutes ago, ettin said:

You get mad at a supposed deal that didn't happen yet completely ignore the fact that he spent $245M to bring the best third baseman in baseball to the Angels for the next 7 years?

That is a weird expectation.

Arte has consistently shown he will spend big on big PR splash moves.....then he forces his GM's to dumpster dive for everyone else.     I love the Rendon signing....I think it was a good move and worth the risk.    I can't wait to see him play.     But then Arte nixed the Stripling/Pederson deal that could have really helped Rendon's contributions translate into wins....and made us one of the WC favorites.     

[Docwaukee]

5 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I think I said what I disagree with.   Who said Eppler shouldn't be accountable?       I think he's done a fantastic job in spite of Arte's screwing up the team.     Arte forces big PR splash moves to sell tickets and get huge TV contracts....then he won't spend even a small percent of his gains to clean up the mess when guys like Hamilton crash and burn.    He also won't spend on little moves when we need it to get balance....I guess that doesn't fit his advertising mentality.   And threatening Eppler's job unless he "wins now," right after nixing a deal that would  have helped that.....is unbelievable.

It hasn't been all Arte screwing things up at the major league level.  Billy had 50m to spend last year and what did he do with it?  50 million dollars that amounted to absolutely nothing.  I could have drawn names out of a hat and done better.  

[Rally Gorilla]

1 minute ago, Dochalo said:

Eppler's moves have to work at some point.  Do you think Arte was responsible for Cahill, Harvey, Lucroy and Allen?  

I am not saying that is all Eppler should be judged by, by it's part of what needs to be considered.  

FTR, I want Eppler extended.  I think he's a very good GM and I'd agree that he's had limited opportunities.  But performance at the major league level is ultimately what's gonna make or break his ability to stay employed with the halos.  Not totally fair considering his circumstances but I can see where he needs to be held accountable for that.    

Do you think Cahill, Harvey, Lucroy and Allen were Epplers firsth choices?   He was picking from the bargain bin because of Arte's self-imposed penny-pinching on lower PR moves.

[Rally Gorilla]

8 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

It hasn't been all Arte screwing things up at the major league level. 

I disagree.  Pujols, Wilson, Hamilton....and a tendency to force his GM's to dumpster dive for non-splashy team needs.

[Tank]

9 hours ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Man, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Arte actually did nix the Pederson/Stripling deal......unbelievable.    That deal would have put us in a very realistic position to earn a WC spot, and maybe even the division with a lot of luck.    Just unbelievable.

I find that there’s generally an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes that you and I will never know. I’m willing to trust that if Arte said no, there was probably a very good reason for it. 
 

I’m also not willing to lose sleep over any of this. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, beatlesrule said:

How do you measure pitchers then exactly? War is also a highly debated way of evaluating a pitcher. If era and whip are not important, how in the world do you know if a pitcher is good or not? If he has an era of 2.02, that doesn't mean he's good or ace material??

Personally, I prefer to look at something that actually predictive of future performance -- neither WAR nor ERA do that and raw ERA doesn't differentiate between a guy pitching in Angel Stadium and a guy pitching in Coors or Arlington.     WHIP is a much better stat than ERA but there are a ton of stats available that are even better.

 

[Rally Gorilla]

2 minutes ago, Tank said:

I find that there’s generally an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes that you and I will never know. I’m willing to trust that if Arte said no, there was probably a very good reason for it. 
 

I’m also not willing to lose sleep over any of this. 

If you want to put blind faith in Arte, who am I to try and stop you?   We all have our opinions.    But, IMHO, Arte and his "behind the scenes" driven moves have put us in a 10 year playoff win drought....and increased his personal net worth massively.