Arte: "We need to win" for Eppler to get a new deal

[Rally Gorilla]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Let’s cut to the chase.  In 9 years you will be blaming Arte for the length of Trout’s contract.

No, I'll be blaming him for forcing GM's to dumpster dive to put a team around the big signings.

[Dtwncbad]

26 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I don

I agree that the smart move is to win.    This is big market.

I don't fault anyone for making money...those are your words.

Rengifo was the player identified in the trade....you think the Angels were just going to also throw in Adell?  

Arte does have a big ego....and it left us with a gutted farm, a poor performing team, and a 10 year playoff win drought.    

So you believe the Angels were going to pick up a cumulative 5 WAR (Stripling 2 wAR and Pederson 3 WAR) for Rengifo?

Man, why didn’t they just suggest we Simplify the trade and just take Walker Buehler (5 WAR) for Rengifo and call it a day?

I see why you are so mad at Arte.  We could have had Walker Buehler for Rengifo.

[Rally Gorilla]

20 minutes ago, True Grich said:

 

RG - I don't have anything against you. You clearly want to see the Angels win like the rest of us.  We just disagree on what Arte brings to the table as an owner.

I'm willing to just agree to disagree with you and move on because I don't think this dialog is going anywhere.

Go Halos!

Agreed!   Go Halos!

[ukyah]

20 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Clearly they didn't feel as desperate as you are, or they understand that trades made out of desperation are a fools play.  

And no, we don't have to wait for other teams to make trades, but we need other teams to want to make them.  By your own count there aren't many teams willing to move "Good" pitching.

Hopefully they are in contention at the break and someone has pitching available.

 

20 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Guess they'll find a new GM if that happens, one that is willing to make desperate trades.    

maybe i'm reading you wrong, but i don't like the characterization that the pederson/stripling trade was a desperate trade. all reports of that trade were a major win for the angels, unbelievably so. arte cut off his nose to spite his face.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, ukyah said:

 

maybe i'm reading you wrong, but i don't like the characterization that the pederson/stripling trade was a desperate trade. all reports of that trade were a major win for the angels, unbelievably so. arte cut off his nose to spite his face.

If the consensus was it was lopsided in favor of the Angels, and at the same time NOBODY can actually confirm what exact players the Angels would ultimately have to give up, doesn’t common sense take over and we reasonably assume the actual price was more than what was reported?

The storyline that has no holes in its theory is Arte had lots of time to think about the deal (knowing the real price that we don’t know), and decided this wasn’t the “right” transaction to make the kind of impact he was looking for, and he decided to pass so that the Angels can pursue something better.

If anyone can offer confirmed details how what I just wrote is wrong, please do so.

The resistance to common sense is:

1). emotion/ frustration based and

2). oddly rooted in a desire to create and preserve the “Arte cut off his nose to spite his face” narrative to spend that frustration on

I will say it again.  When the Angels make a move for a starting pitcher some time this year, the instant narrative will be that Arte got reckless and overpaid to make up for killing the Stripling/Pederson deal. . . .You know because the REAL price for a stud pitcher will seem outrageous compared to narrative that the Angels were going to land 5 WAR in upgrades for one decent prospect.

[Docwaukee]

5 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Pitcher health is a crapshoot but pitcher performance, at least SP performance .... Much less so.     

There is no way around Billy having missed the boat last year... Both Harvey and Allen had some Jerry Dipoto-like "smartest guy in the room" vibes to them, all the predictive data screamed stay away but Epp, gambled on the two of them seeing improvements in their FBs --  neither did and they pitched to what their predictive data was pointing towards.   

Cahill, Bour, fine.... Cahill's implosion was a bit surprising and Bour cost chump-change... but Allen and Harvey were massive red flags at hello....  Those moves shouldn't be placed ahead of everything he's done right but they shouldn't be glossed over.  IMO, if Arte doesn't extend him it will be because of the 2019 offseason and mostly due to those two deals.

and Cozart.  

I also think Arte didn't like Eppler's choice of Ausmus and Doug White.  

[Inside Pitch]

47 minutes ago, ukyah said:

maybe i'm reading you wrong, but i don't like the characterization that the pederson/stripling trade was a desperate trade. all reports of that trade were a major win for the angels, unbelievably so. arte cut off his nose to spite his face.

You are...     

Someone else phrased the Angels as desperate.   They also faulted them for waiting until that trade to make one...    My point was exactly what you're saying -- instead of acting out of desperation Eppler waited for an opportunity.    The non-trade was exactly the sort of move  that should have been praised not derided as it was by others.

The Arte thing wasn't even on my mind -- just the notion that it blew up in Epplers face because "he waited".   

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I bring up his net worth to illustrate he is unwilling to spend on non-splashy moves that would give the team balance.     I think you know that.

like Harvey, Cahill, and Allen?  Those were non-splashy moves that cost almost 30m.  And Cozart?  And Valbuena (RIP)?  

[Angel Oracle]

2 hours ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I don

I agree that the smart move is to win.    This is big market.

I don't fault anyone for making money...those are your words.

Rengifo was the player identified in the trade....you think the Angels were just going to also throw in Adell?  

Arte does have a big ego....and it left us with a gutted farm, a poor performing team, and a 10 year playoff win drought.    

That was more J. Pierrepont Reagins and Dumbpoto.

Important things are, they are no longer the GM, the farm is in much better shape, and hopefully the post-season drought is coming to a close soon. 

Anyway, the season is just  days away.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Angels 1961]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

There were plenty of FA SP options at the time, Eppler put his hopes on potential upside  He gambled and lost.   Had Harvey been the only guy to bust it wouldn't look so bad but every single one of them did.   I'm a big fan of what Eppler has done but he gets to wear his fuck-ups same as he does the good he's done.  

As far as Allen goes -- if he was all that was left, then he should have passed.

Most FA SP were gone I feel Harvey, Allen and even Cahill Eppler was hoping for a return at deadline. They were bad signings only good thing they were 1 year deals. Again FA signings players also have to want to come here. This last off season Cole was going to Yankees, Wheeler was staying on east coast and Strasburg was going back to Nats. Ryu and Keuchel could have went after especially for me Keuchel was a reasonable price. 

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, True Grich said:

And it would grow even more if they won in the post season; especially if they won a World Series.

It's as if you fault the guy for making money and increasing the value of the franchise.  You keep talking about his growing net worth like it's a bad thing.  It's not.  Do you doubt his commitment to winning?

You seem to be upset because you believe Arte nixed a deal that was simply Rengifo for a boatload of talent.  That wasn't the deal. You don't know the particulars of the deal. None of us do. In your frustration you continue to ignore the facts and push the same narrative and add the bit about his net worth.  It's weak. The value of the franchise isn't relative to the argument at all.

Arte has a big ego. I'm guessing every MLB franchise owner does to some extent. BFD.

your right we do not know the details

1. we do not know who the Angels prospects we were losing

2.  we do not know if the Dodgers were changing the financial terms

We do know that Arte nixed the deal.  I do not see Arte nixing the deal because of the players we are sending over.  However I can see him doing it because of a change in the financial terms.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

How much has he spent those 10 years to not win a playoff game?   

he should have broke the budget to right the ship once he released Hamilton

[Inside Pitch]

3 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Most FA SP were gone I feel Harvey, Allen and even Cahill Eppler was hoping for a return at deadline. They were bad signings only good thing they were 1 year deals. Again FA signings players also have to want to come here. This last off season Cole was going to Yankees, Wheeler was staying on east coast and Strasburg was going back to Nats. Ryu and Keuchel could have went after especially for me Keuchel was a reasonable price. 

I'm guessing you're new and aren't familiar with what others have said in the past but -- you're kinda preaching to the choir here.    We know, even understand why Billy made those deals, he still has to wear it.

Im a Billy fan but after all the rationalizing has been said and done -- Harvey and Allen were awful decisions...   I would have sooner not made a move than make either one of those deals and I said as much AT THAT TIME...     As far as this off-season goes -- I wouldn't have paid Keuchel or Ryu what they got and I was comfortable with passing on both those guys.   At the same time I was willing to stretch for Wheeler and I'll be the first to admit that deal has a chance to go sideways in a hurry... so, it's not like I'm opposed to spending or even taking risks, but, I don't take risks/spend money on pitchers reliant on re-finding their fastballs in order to succeed.

Again, I'd rather not make a move than make a shitty one.   Ryu for four years is not appealing.  

[mmc]

I can't wait for someone to leak that the prospects from the Angels side were Marsh and Kochanowicz and see this board do a complete 180.

[Inside Pitch]

5 minutes ago, mymerlincat said:

I can't wait for someone to leak that the prospects from the Angels side were Marsh and Kochanowicz and see this board do a complete 180.

Considering that Ardaya and Fletcher I believe both specifically said Marsh wasn't a part of the trade ...  could you blame them?   I mean the people who would be doing that 180 held a perception of the deal based on what had been leaked..   

Biggest takeaway from the situation IMO is that people shouldn't get so caught up in rumors and leaks.   I mean, Gerrit Cole wanted to be an Angel too..   

[eligrba]

4 hours ago, Rally Gorilla said:

So, you were a big McCourt fan then?

No. Why does it matter?

[CanadianHalo]

So you’re telling me this will be Eppler’s last year then?

Sweet!

[ukyah]

9 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

If the consensus was it was lopsided in favor of the Angels, and at the same time NOBODY can actually confirm what exact players the Angels would ultimately have to give up, doesn’t common sense take over and we reasonably assume the actual price was more than what was reported?

The storyline that has no holes in its theory is Arte had lots of time to think about the deal (knowing the real price that we don’t know), and decided this wasn’t the “right” transaction to make the kind of impact he was looking for, and he decided to pass so that the Angels can pursue something better.

If anyone can offer confirmed details how what I just wrote is wrong, please do so.

The resistance to common sense is:

1). emotion/ frustration based and

2). oddly rooted in a desire to create and preserve the “Arte cut off his nose to spite his face” narrative to spend that frustration on

I will say it again.  When the Angels make a move for a starting pitcher some time this year, the instant narrative will be that Arte got reckless and overpaid to make up for killing the Stripling/Pederson deal. . . .You know because the REAL price for a stud pitcher will seem outrageous compared to narrative that the Angels were going to land 5 WAR in upgrades for one decent prospect.

to reply simply, none of that jives with what was reported by anybody, including jeff fletcher.  i'm not as passionate about these things as many fans are. i just don't like what pretty clearly is the owner issuing what by any definition is a threat, while meddling in the practices of his employees.

like i said, every iteration of the trade had it as a major win for the angels. i don't need to see a dinosaur to know they exist, knowledgeable professional people have reported on it and i believe them.

[ukyah]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

You are...     

Someone else phrased the Angels as desperate.   They also faulted them for waiting until that trade to make one...    My point was exactly what you're saying -- instead of acting out of desperation Eppler waited for an opportunity.    The non-trade was exactly the sort of move  that should have been praised not derided as it was by others.

The Arte thing wasn't even on my mind -- just the notion that it blew up in Epplers face because "he waited".   

[Jay]

This is some validation for the "Arte is tired of losing" narrative. 

[W.E. Baxter Author]

On 2/17/2020 at 12:40 PM, Reveille1984 said:

We're in the second biggest U.S. media market with a top five valued MLB TV contract.  It's not like Arte is the only potential owner of the franchise that would spend dough.

His inability to step aside and let his underlings do their job is probably one of his biggest downsides, and it shows with the direction the team has gone in the past decade.

Arte Moreno is a good man, but he has never been a good owner.

[Lou]

1 minute ago, W.E. Baxter Author said:

Arte Moreno is a good man, but he has never been a good owner.

Ridiculous

[Dtwncbad]

29 minutes ago, W.E. Baxter Author said:

Arte Moreno is a good man, but he has never been a good owner.

You seem like a good guy, but you have never been a good message board contributor.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

You seem like a good guy, but you have never been a good message board contributor.

[ukyah]

6 hours ago, RBM said:

When asked what has to happen for Eppler to earn an extension, Moreno said: “I think there’s a lot of pieces. It’s just not one thing. There’s just a lot of pieces. Just like anything. As a group we need to win. I probably should fire myself.” 

- Jeff Fletcher in the OC Register and on Twitter (@Jeff Fletcher)

 

I don’t really see this as a threat. Do you? I think it’s a fairly benign answer to a pointed question. I think many of us are missing the point here. The reality is Arte’s answer here is actually taking some of the heat off of Eppler and reapplying it to the entire organization. And I’m not absolving Arte of his meddlesome ways. I was very critical of him when he backed out of the Stripling/Pederson deal.

@mymerlincat should probably change the title to this thread to better represent what Arte actually said.

Maybe “Arte thinks he should fire himself, not Eppler.”

 

i think when you're asked about an employees job and you give a qualified answer, then yes it's a threat. many years of experience tells me this is so.