Time to Abandon the Opener

[rafibomb]

 

Looks like no openers for the Sox series. Also, no opener for Suarez today.

[zenmaster]

5 minutes ago, rafibomb said:

 

Looks like no openers for the Sox series. Also, no opener for Suarez today.

Don't they always list the "starter" days ahead of the games even when we have an opener? I bet the day of the game it's updated to show an opener, if we use them. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, Calzone 2 said:

This is a great thread. Good discussion.

I've brought this up among other issues with the pitching staff since May, June, July. I find it interesting that it makes a difference now? Or, people just figured it out.

So, with all the passed balls, wild pitches we DFA Lacroy and then Smith has a couple on Sunday. Even the Golden Boy Stassi defensive catcher had a one his first game in.

Too worried about analytics and Spin rate, fastball rotation etc. Over throwing your breaking stuff in the dirt or over throwing your fastball to get extra rotation and it flattening out doesn't help!  

Over throwing a strike 3 located slider in the dirt at 1-1 in the count with a runner on 1st and 2nd  or 2nd and allowing them to advance 90 feet and get into scoring position has effected this team all season long.

[Claude]

6 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

I've brought this up among other issues with the pitching staff since May, June, July. I find it interesting that it makes a difference now? Or, people just figured it out.

So, with all the passed balls, wild pitches we DFA Lacroy and then Smith has a couple on Sunday. Even the Golden Boy Stassi defensive catcher had a one his first game in.

Too worried about analytics and Spin rate, fastball rotation etc. Over throwing your breaking stuff in the dirt or over throwing your fastball to get extra rotation and it flattening out doesn't help!  

Over throwing a strike 3 located slider in the dirt at 1-1 in the count with a runner on 1st and 2nd  or 2nd and allowing them to advance 90 feet and get into scoring position has effected this team all season long.

The game has gotten away from the players. Every pitch selection comes from the dugout. Do you think Nolan Ryan relied on the manager to select a pitch. I laugh when they show the outfielders pull out their outfield placement cards. Maybe it gives them an advantage but it’s kinda funny that Major League Baseball has turned into X’s & O’s

[eligrba]

35 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

The game has gotten away from the players. Every pitch selection comes from the dugout. Do you think Nolan Ryan relied on the manager to select a pitch. I laugh when they show the outfielders pull out their outfield placement cards. Maybe it gives them an advantage but it’s kinda funny that Major League Baseball has turned into X’s & O’s

Fyi-Those outfield placement cards were crucial when I was playing whiffle ball. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

57 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

The game has gotten away from the players. Every pitch selection comes from the dugout. Do you think Nolan Ryan relied on the manager to select a pitch. I laugh when they show the outfielders pull out their outfield placement cards. Maybe it gives them an advantage but it’s kinda funny that Major League Baseball has turned into X’s & O’s

Ryan didn't GAF what anyone wanted him to throw. He was a Veteran and historical figure.  Similar to the shift. Don't shift if your can't execute the pitches required to get them to hit into it.

infield straight away, up the middle, left pull, right pull.  Outfield Straight away, no doubles, left pull, right pull. 

[Claude]

8 minutes ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Ryan didn't GAF what anyone wanted him to throw. He was a Veteran and historical figure.  Similar to the shift. Don't shift if your can't execute the pitches required to get them to hit into it.

infield straight away, up the middle, left pull, right pull.  Outfield Straight away, no doubles, left pull, right pull. 

Exactly and if they wanted him to intentionally walk someone he would just pluck them instead.

[Mark PT]

5 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It is one of those things designed to improve your performance by a small margin, so you don’t really know if it works until you’ve done a lot of times, and you can never really get an accurate test on it because so many other variables are always changing. 

It is one of those things like “How many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Pop?”

So are you going to tell us or leave us in the dark? (the tootsie pop thing)

[Mark PT]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

I believe that the the improved power from the average hitter has much more to do with the “watered down talent” on the mound than anything else.  When I started watching baseball in the late 70’s and early 80’s if your name wasn’t Ryan or JR Richard or Seaver, then you were considered a fastball pitcher if you threw 90-92 mph.  Now if your fastball is 92 you will get lit up like a Christmas tree.  Guys don’t have the luxury of saving some of their stuff for later in the game like they once could.  The hitters, while striking out too much, are working the count better than ever, and are hitting the ball over the fence at a much greater pace than ever before, or at least he seems like that.  Infielders like Fletcher are the exception, but back in the day if your SS hit 15 home runs he was considered a power threat.  Hitters are too good, scouting reports are too good.  Remember the Nasty Boys in the 1990 pen for the Reds, they all threw mid 90’s and were considered an amazing bullpen.  The Angels currently have a good but not amazing bullpen, and Anderson, Buttrey and Robles all throw 98-100 mph.  The game has evolved a devolved at the same time.  

I disagree with some of what you insinuate, namely pitchers of today require higher velocities to get batters out. This is false. They need to locate their pitches better and change speeds more, like the pitchers of the 60s and 70s did to perfection. Most pitchers have upper 90s fastballs and can throw either a slider or change but cant control any of their secondary pitches. This is why counts get so deep (maybe in combination with batter's increasing their skill to locate bad pitches but I doubt it). The pitcher then must place a fastball directly over the middle and bam ERA to 7.00

[Jay]

6 hours ago, Dochalo said:

Personally, I'd prefer no shits, no openers, and more balls in play but in the end, I don't care as long as the Angels win.  

Agree, there's no place in baseball for shits.

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

6 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Every pitch selection comes from the dugout.

This is not true. The catchers call the pitches. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

5 hours ago, Mark PT said:

So are you going to tell us or leave us in the dark? (the tootsie pop thing)

The world may never know...

[Jeff Fletcher]

7 hours ago, zenmaster said:

Don't they always list the "starter" days ahead of the games even when we have an opener? I bet the day of the game it's updated to show an opener, if we use them. 

They don’t say if it’s going to be an opener until a day or two before. It depends on the bullpen use. 

[Blarg]

13 hours ago, Mark PT said:

So are you going to tell us or leave us in the dark? (the tootsie pop thing)

He wants you to do your own research.

[ScruffytheJanitor]

20 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It is one of those things designed to improve your performance by a small margin, so you don’t really know if it works until you’ve done a lot of times, and you can never really get an accurate test on it because so many other variables are always changing. 

It is one of those things like “How many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Pop?”

437. I did this twice during a detention (once in 6th grade, once in 10th) and got the exact same number of licks in both cases.

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 hours ago, cvdog said:

The whole idea of an opener is ridiculous. It's a gimick and a crutch. It sends a message to your weaker starting pitchers that they're not good enough to start a game. Scrub this nonsense and toughen up your pitchers or get rid of them. Barria and Suarez are probably not long for this team anyway. 

It sends the same message as hitting a guy 8th instead of 3rd. Or sitting him instead of playing him. Or having him in AAA instead of the majors. 

Not all players are the same and they all know it. Their performance dictates how they are used. 

[eligrba]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

It sends the same message as hitting a guy 8th instead of 3rd. Or sitting him instead of playing him. Or having him in AAA instead of the majors. 

Not all players are the same and they all know it. Their performance dictates how they are used. 

Do their parents also know it?

[Pancake Bear]

The anti-analytics posts are really quite amusing to read. Clearly you guys have no actual clue because the mischaracterization is nuts.

[Jay]

I think the anti-analytics crowd is disproportionately large on AW because analytics don't seem to be doing jack shit for the Angels.

 

[Stradling]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

I think the anti-analytics crowd is disproportionately large on AW because analytics don't seem to be doing jack shit for the Angels.

 

Except there is no way to prove they aren’t working.  Nor is there a way to prove they are.  So I’ll go with math and assume it is helping.

[Claude]

5 hours ago, Jay said:

I think the anti-analytics crowd is disproportionately large on AW because analytics don't seem to be doing jack shit for the Angels.

 

The analytics prove only one thing. You’re only as good as the players you put on the field. Sh*ty openers shouldn’t open and sh*ty starters shouldn’t start. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Calzone 2

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 8/6/2019 at 4:18 PM, Calzone 2 said:

Exactly and if they wanted him to intentionally walk someone he would just pluck them instead.

Exactly, Why throw 4 when they can get there with 1....

 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 8/6/2019 at 9:29 PM, Jeff Fletcher said:

This is not true. The catchers call the pitches. 

After, they have gone over the scouting reports, charts, analytics and hitters tendencies and everything setup by the Manager and Pitching Coach. Do they no longer do meetings prior to the pitchers start or do meetings prior to the individual game series? A portion of that was done during the week throwing sessions.... We would go over the hitters in the next game and would actually chart a certain (ex 3-4 hitters) or certain pinch hitters we may face in situations within a bullpen sequence. And cold run it through the bully session.

 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:51 AM, cvdog said:

The whole idea of an opener is ridiculous. It's a gimick and a crutch. It sends a message to your weaker starting pitchers that they're not good enough to start a game. Scrub this nonsense and toughen up your pitchers or get rid of them. Barria and Suarez are probably not long for this team anyway. 

Roles are Roles. In the end. Openers allow the additional over-usage of teams bullpen and pitching staff within a series, week, month and season. So, you are now burning 5-6 arms in a single game possibly instead of 3-4. IT is really all relative and depending on pitch counts can over use the entire pitching staff.

If a starter goes 4 (or)5-6 then you have your middle long guy "Cahill" for 2 = 6 (or you may be able to skip him in this game and bring him in the next day to double up if one of your setup guys are tired and then go to your closer) and your 2 setup guys and maybe a situational Loogey and then if you have a lead at home your closer!  In this example during a home game where your starter goes 4 innings you would use 6 arms to get 27 outs. 

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, SlappyUtilityMIF said:

Roles are Roles. In the end. Openers allow the additional over-usage of teams bullpen and pitching staff within a series, week, month and season. So, you are now burning 5-6 arms in a single game possibly instead of 3-4. IT is really all relative and depending on pitch counts can over use the entire pitching staff.

If a starter goes 4 (or)5-6 then you have your middle long guy "Cahill" for 2 = 6 (or you may be able to skip him in this game and bring him in the next day to double up if one of your setup guys are tired and then go to your closer) and your 2 setup guys and maybe a situational Loogey and then if you have a lead at home your closer!  In this example during a home game where your starter goes 4 innings you would use 6 arms to get 27 outs. 

This isn’t necessarily true.  The only difference is it’s one extra pitcher if the primary pitcher is amazing.