Are the Angels a dysfunctional organization?

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Yep,

Thanks for nothing, Dumb Sh_t Dumbpoto, and failures like Hamilton and headcases like Nibs, and washouts like Mr. Pop-Up.

I hate dipoto as much as the next guy. But ill defend a few things here.

First, we dont know what his directive was.... as in, was he told to win now?

After 2009-2011, youd think a core staff of weave, haren and santana was pretty frikkin solid. Then he added CJ Wilson... i honestly thought wilson was going to help more than pujols.

Haren falls off a cliff, santana falls apart, and wilson is average at best.

The biggest blunder wasnt Pujols. It was hamilton. After losing grienke, we should have held back (the 2012 team was solid, just needed a pen). 

As soon as we signed hamilton, you knew trumbo was gone. Essentially, we had to trade him for arms. Trumbo was flawed, but he was at least as good as what we got out of hamilton, for far far less. We could have kept trumbo and torii, and used the extra money for pitching... even just focusing on the pen.... and would have been far better off.

[Angel Oracle]

The Hamilton signing was one of the biggest blunders in MLB this decade.    Dude was declining already (so-so 2nd half), and GAVE UP on a ball that went behind him IN A WINNER TAKES A POST-SEASON SPOT game in 2012.   That is as bad as it gets.   And Arte/Dumbpoto STILL gave him $125 million????????? 

[ScottT]

3 million and twenty two fans for 62 straight years. $1.9 billion value.   

Yeah, they are in a playoff drought... they've spent more money than most... but I'm skeptical of this assessment.

[DCAngelsFan]

49 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

The Hamilton signing was one of the biggest blunders in MLB this decade.    Dude was declining already (so-so 2nd half), and GAVE UP on a ball that went behind him IN A WINNER TAKES A POST-SEASON SPOT game in 2012.   That is as bad as it gets.   And Arte/Dumbpoto STILL gave him $125 million????????? 

On the list of biggest blunders, the Angels are on that list far too often:

• Trading Napoli and Rivera for Vernon Wells - everyone but our front office knew Wells' numbers were a mirage, a product of home field - in the months before he was traded, someone wrote a column about how the Jays wanted desperately to get rid of him, but called him untradeable - the contract far too toxic for anyone else to take on.  The author didn't count on the stupidity of the Angels, however.  I forget the number, but I think I calc'd the Jays needed to send us like $42m to make that a fair trade.
• 5/$50m for GMJ - always thought that signing was made based on one ESPN highlight play - absurd.
• CJ Wilson 
• Pujols (I know, I know - whatever you say about marketing value, there's no chance he was ever worth it on the field)
• Hamilton, of course - thought for sure we were talking to him only to drive the price up for Texas or Seattle, surely we weren't that stupid?   Yes, we were.   
• Baldoquin, and all the mistakes that surrounded that - being in the penalty and unable to sign Vlad Jr only part of the problem.
• Poor drafting - We had more 2010 drafts (where we had 5 high picks, with only Bedrosian to show for it, leaving Yelich, Snydergaard, Andrelton Simmons,  Aaron Sanchez, and Realmuto for others to draft) than the singular 2009 draft.    Starting pitching is a function of drafting - top tier pitchers rarely hit free agency.  But losing 1st round comp picks, picking poorly, and never really being bad enough to draft in the top 5 like Houston hasn't helped us fill out a good rotation for a long, long time.  
• The complete withdrawal from the international market for a number of years, and all-but ignoring the Cubans FA's and NPB postings (other than Morales.)   
• Hints and rumors that the minor league / scouting / development operations were on a shoestring for years, even before DiPoto - who seemed to similarly neglect it - maybe b/c Arte needed to keep making a profit, so investors could get paid.  

The team has been hamstrung, repeatedly, by bad FA signings - no sooner would one expire than we'd run out and sign another.

And a lot of bad luck (Adenhardt, Morales, now Skaggs)

The problem isn't Arte.  And yet, it is - like many teams that did poorly because their owners can't resist meddling ... 

There are 30 teams in baseball all competing for the same thing - you can't afford that many mistakes or misses - you can't afford to be outspent, outthought, out-hustled - mediocrity is easy - being the best is really hard.  

 

[Claude]

We just need to turn the page. 

end thread.

[Stradling]

2 hours ago, Lou said:

Claude's team moved to get away from him

Can you blame them?

[UndertheHalo]

I hear Claude is a great guy off the Internet.  I guess that’s cool. 

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, UndertheHalo said:

I hear Claude is a great guy off the Internet.  I guess that’s cool. 

Yeah, but the guy that said that was Claude!

[Angelsjunky]

Man, I tried to start an interesting discussion. Hey, at least its been somewhat entertaining. Oh well, I'll dumb it down again.

BOOBS!

[Blarg]

5 hours ago, REDneck said:

So wait did the dang couple make it to Nashville and get to drink the cinnamon Jack Daniels or not?

I need to know now!!

They had a little car problem and are stuck in Jackson and ended up drinking PBRs instead. 

[ScottT]

35 minutes ago, cvdog said:

Isn't the definition of dysfunctional having the greatest player in the history of baseball and not be able to win 1 playoff game.

I don't think so.

oh... and BOOBS!

[ScottT]

Also.... I think there's a lot of area between dysfunctional and wildly successful.  There's a lot of teams that haven't had great success on the field over a nine year span.  It's not an outrageous amount of time to be a mediocre team.  

Edited July 30, 2019 by ScottT
,,,

[UndertheHalo]

The Mets are like the 5th or 6th most valuable franchise in MLB.  They are massively dysfunctional. 

[mulwin444]

Expecting Eppler to fix what Stoneman, Reagins, and Dipoto f'd up over a decade in just three years is a bit unrealistic.  Yet, somehow, without tanking, he re-built the farm, convinced the best player in baseball to sign a lifetime contract, and attracted the best foreign free agent in years.  For years the Angels had no International presence, lost top draft picks due to signing free agents or traded away what talent we had for modest returns.  When we did have a healthy grip of top picks (2010), we pissed it away...

2016 - 2019 is what a decade of franchise neglect looks like but, for the first time in years, they have a solid foundation.  This wasn't disfunction...this is what pulling up a nose-diving plane looks like.

[Second Base]

6 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

Expecting Eppler to fix what Stoneman, Reagins, and Dipoto f'd up over a decade in just three years is a bit unrealistic.  Yet, somehow, without tanking, he re-built the farm, convinced the best player in baseball to sign a lifetime contract, and attracted the best foreign free agent in years.  For years the Angels had no International presence, lost top draft picks due to signing free agents or traded away what talent we had for modest returns.  When we did have a healthy grip of top picks (2010), we pissed it away...

2016 - 2019 is what a decade of franchise neglect looks like but, for the first time in years, they have a solid foundation.  This wasn't disfunction...this is what pulling up a nose-diving plane looks like.

I don't feel like Stoneman screwed up as much. He hoarded prospects and built a homegrown winner that was supplemented by inexpensive free agents. Some of his free agency signings were busts, but they were short term busts. He could've been better but overall, he's probably the best GM this team has had.

Reagins was a good old boy, and surrounded himself with other good old boys. You know the type, ones that hate numbers, people that disagree with them and the media. This is the guy that fired the man that found Mike Trout. This is the guy that does up a day late to the winter meetings, team away from n the media, threw a tantrum because the free agent he c wanted signed elsewhere before he arrived at the meetings and then complained that the winter meetings were pointless. He was more inept that anything, but at least his lack of ability didn't have lasting impact.

Dipoto is the wrecker of organizations. Ignored international prospects altogether, and actively traded away international funds, which makes me wonder if the accusations of calling all Latinos lazy in Seattle had merit to it. Traded away the best prospects his predecessors developed on short term rental because he really didn't have any respect for maintaining a farm system. Thought they could be rebuilt quickly so no need to invest. Drafted almost exclusively low ceiling college talent that never made it past AA. The prep players that he did draft were mostly poorly scored and came with all sorts of flaws. He spent insane amounts of money in free agency and built teams that looked good on paper but were just awful in the field. Refused to communicate openly with guys the dugout and instead simply picked the  players he wanted and gave orders on how to play the game. And when it all went South, he leaves in the middle of a season and goes straight to the media and blames the whole thing on his manager.

Eppler may have his flaws, but he likes meeting and exchanging ideas with new people and developing relationships. He seems like a legitimately good person, which is more than we can say about Dipoto.

[fan_since79]

15 hours ago, 2112 said:

I think the organization was worse than all of us anticipated.  Any amount of glue, clean peanuts, etc. won't hide that fact.

It has been a long slow build.  But at least it was done without tanking.

 

Maybe we need to really tank like we did in 2001 and get it out of our system. We were 2-19 in our final 21 games in that season.

[arch stanton]

Tanking is pathetic. And gay. And pathetically gay

[Torridd]

The definition of dysfunctional is abnormal functioning. I don't think the Angels have functioned abnormally as an organization. All teams have made wrong decisions, just like a family, but I wouldn't call them abnormal. Re the definition, I would say none of the teams, with maybe the exception of Miami, is. Some have slower processes in winning, but that's just a choice. The Angels have had an incredible run of "bad luck" over the last 15 years. Moreno tried spending his way to a championship but it didn't work and now he's onto a slower process. I'm not necessarily happy about it, but it's not abnormal.

[mulwin444]

3 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I don't feel like Stoneman screwed up as much. He hoarded prospects and built a homegrown winner that was supplemented by inexpensive free agents. Some of his free agency signings were busts, but they were short term busts. He could've been better but overall, he's probably the best GM this team has had.

Reagins was a good old boy, and surrounded himself with other good old boys. You know the type, ones that hate numbers, people that disagree with them and the media. This is the guy that fired the man that found Mike Trout. This is the guy that does up a day late to the winter meetings, team away from n the media, threw a tantrum because the free agent he c wanted signed elsewhere before he arrived at the meetings and then complained that the winter meetings were pointless. He was more inept that anything, but at least his lack of ability didn't have lasting impact.

Dipoto is the wrecker of organizations. Ignored international prospects altogether, and actively traded away international funds, which makes me wonder if the accusations of calling all Latinos lazy in Seattle had merit to it. Traded away the best prospects his predecessors developed on short term rental because he really didn't have any respect for maintaining a farm system. Thought they could be rebuilt quickly so no need to invest. Drafted almost exclusively low ceiling college talent that never made it past AA. The prep players that he did draft were mostly poorly scored and came with all sorts of flaws. He spent insane amounts of money in free agency and built teams that looked good on paper but were just awful in the field. Refused to communicate openly with guys the dugout and instead simply picked the  players he wanted and gave orders on how to play the game. And when it all went South, he leaves in the middle of a season and goes straight to the media and blames the whole thing on his manager.

Eppler may have his flaws, but he likes meeting and exchanging ideas with new people and developing relationships. He seems like a legitimately good person, which is more than we can say about Dipoto.

I included Stoneman simply because he was part of the beginning of the franchises downturn that carried over into Reagins' era.  

In 2005, they lost their 1st round pick for signing OCab and the supplemental pick they did receive for losing Troy Percival got us Trevor Bell...in 2006, they lost their 1st round pick for signing Jeff Weaver but gained it back losing Paul Byrd to the Indians picking Hank Conger, lost their 2nd pick for signing Hector Carrasco...in 2007, they lost their 1st rounder, the 24th pick, for signing Gary Matthews, and got a 59th pick as compensation for losing Adam Kennedy and lost a 2nd rounder to the Blue Jays for Justin Speier (they also received a 1st round supplemental pick, the 38th)...

So, in 2005, they picked 37th and didn't get much, in 2006, they picked 25th and didn't get much, and in 2007, they picked 58th and didn't get much while also losing picks in the 2nd round and, in 2007, using their 3rd round pick on Matt Harvey.  

Best player produced through those three drafts?  Peter Bourjos and then a steep drop off from there.

[yk9001]

14 hours ago, Second Base said:

The Angels never tanked - The fastest way to rebuild an organization into a winner is simply to tank. Worked for the Cubs, Royals, Dodgers, Astros, White Sox, Padres,

[fan_since79]

The Astros thoroughly tanked for several years but patiently built their winning team with top draft picks. They were kind of a laughingstock during those dreadful years but it paid off in the end.

[ScruffytheJanitor]

14 hours ago, Second Base said:

I do think this is a dysfunctional organization, and that the v problem is multifaceted.

1. The Angels never tanked - The fastest way to rebuild an organization into a winner is simply to tank. Worked for the Cubs, Royals, Dodgers, Astros, White Sox, Padres, etc.... You simply cut payroll, and get high draft picks for about 3-5 years, to build up the farm and use the savings to invest in major free agents and create a competitive window of 5 years. The Angels meanwhile have kept payroll the same for about 5 years while trying to rebuild a farm without top draft picks and previously being under the Baldoquin restrictions on international spending. The result has been a long series of mediocrity and a farm system that has now been rebuilt but still lacks the upside of top systems.

2. Eppler has tried to creatively solve problems by not spending money but has instead wasted one of the only things more valuable than money.... Time. And the irony is that once his creative solutions failed, he spent the money anyway.

3. Eppler's free agent track record is absolute garbage.

4. This team can't keep a good pitcher healthy to save its life.

But that's not the description of a "Dysfunctional" organization; it's the description of a constrained organization. Eppler may have a poor FA track record (though you have to include Ohtani in this calculation), and literally NONE of his starting pitching gambles have paid off. But this approach (hoarding prospects, opportunistic trades, and gambling on pitching) was necessitated by the state of the franchise when he arrived--- having the best player in baseball while also having no money, a bad farm, and a pretty weird collection of talent.

He has hit a few home runs (Simmons, Ohtani, Trout Extension, the Draft) and doubles (Upton trade, bullpen performance, international spending so far). He has also struck out a bunch (Any SP not named Ohtani or Caning, Cozart, etc.). While he has wasted his fair share of FA dollars (Cozart was easily his worst move), he's also had to perform on the margins. While that makes his gaffes feel big, it's also part of the reason why mistakes were made in the first place.

In other words, you can criticize the strategy (which I like), the tactics (which have been questionable, especially when it comes to pitching), and the results (which have been been disappointing), but the decisions made at each stage were made as an organization.

[Second Base]

2 minutes ago, ScruffytheJanitor said:

But that's not the description of a "Dysfunctional" organization; it's the description of a constrained organization. Eppler may have a poor FA track record (though you have to include Ohtani in this calculation), and literally NONE of his starting pitching gambles have paid off. But this approach (hoarding prospects, opportunistic trades, and gambling on pitching) was necessitated by the state of the franchise when he arrived--- having the best player in baseball while also having no money, a bad farm, and a pretty weird collection of talent.

He has hit a few home runs (Simmons, Ohtani, Trout Extension, the Draft) and doubles (Upton trade, bullpen performance, international spending so far). He has also struck out a bunch (Any SP not named Ohtani or Caning, Cozart, etc.). While he has wasted his fair share of FA dollars (Cozart was easily his worst move), he's also had to perform on the margins. While that makes his gaffes feel big, it's also part of the reason why mistakes were made in the first place.

In other words, you can criticize the strategy (which I like), the tactics (which have been questionable, especially when it comes to pitching), and the results (which have been been disappointing), but the decisions made at each stage were made as an organization.

Billy Eppler is a wonderful communicator, so I believe you're correct when you say these decisions were made as an organization.  But, as any leader would tell you, they gladly take the blame for the organization failing in one aspect or another. 

The biggest thing I've noticed with Eppler and free agency in general, is that there is a black hole where money is spent and production is scant, and that exists in players signed between 8 million per year and 15 million per year.  These guys get paid, but routinely and spectacularly fail.  It's pretty common for veterans taking 2-3 million dollar deals, or even minor league deals to outperform this crop of players.  But as we get toward 20 million, we start to see players that are considerably more talented, or at least more of a guaranteed asset, which is why they're making so much money. 

Eppler's problem is that he's made that 8-15 million wasteland his own personal playground and gets burned for it every time.  His best moves, are the ones that are made far under that threshold.  Eppler knows how to buy low.  But at least we can say that he isn't Dipoto, who managed to fail at the 25 million level, which is pretty difficult to do.  But it has become entirely necessary for Eppler to spend the money to bring in Gerrit Cole.  As Cole said, that California tax rate sucks, so Billy and company will need to overspend to get him, but that's just the situation they find themselves in. 

[Jay]

It was dysfunctional when Dipoto was GM.

 

[Tank]

18 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

Dysfunctional? Well it’s really difficult to spend this much money and not win at least one playoff game. But somehow we were able to pull it off. 

If you look at the numbers in a complete, isolated vacuum, you’re correct.

If you put them into context of performance and health, you get a much more realistic picture which explains this teams results over that time.