Are the Angels a dysfunctional organization?

[JoJo26]

I didn't read all the comments (whatever) but here's my take....it falls at the feet of Arte.

He hit an absolute grand slam signing Vladdy...then he went into Gene Autry mode - signing past their prime players OR last season heroics made Star-Struck Arte sign them:

Some examples:

Steve Finely: Hits homer to clinch division for Dodgers - Atre signs him. He Blows

King Kong Matsui - World Series MVP - Arte signs him - Ancient 

Josh Hamilton - Huge mistake - after all - even when he goes 0 for playoffs - he gets deservedly booed by fans - he doesn't care cuz "I play for my teammates"

CJ Wilson / GMJr - Both these guys did squat in Texas - never a clutch hit (ever) or a solid pitching performance consistently. Arte relied of GMJr steroid infused stats in Texas and CJ hometown BS

There's more...but...

THEN

THERE'S

ALBERT

Star Struck Arte was amazed how St. Louis treated Albert earlier this season....but remember how they 'low-balled' him to re-sign? And how the fans didn't get all up in arms when he signed with the Halos. But Arte saw him strike lighting in the World Series and even at thirty freaking one...inks him for 10 crappy - no playoff wins...years.

ARTE is the problem. He's overrated as an owner. Beer prices are as high as ever...and so are the salaries for another mediocre year - with the best player in the game sitting home this post season. ..because of the god awful bullpens and lack of starting pitching.

SELL ARTE SELL...

 

 

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, JoJo26 said:

I didn't read all the comments (whatever) but here's my take....it falls at the feet of Arte.

He hit an absolute grand slam signing Vladdy...then he went into Gene Autry mode - signing past their prime players OR last season heroics made Star-Struck Arte sign them:

Some examples:

Steve Finely: Hits homer to clinch division for Dodgers - Atre signs him. He Blows

King Kong Matsui - World Series MVP - Arte signs him - Ancient 

Josh Hamilton - Huge mistake - after all - even when he goes 0 for playoffs - he gets deservedly booed by fans - he doesn't care cuz "I play for my teammates"

CJ Wilson / GMJr - Both these guys did squat in Texas - never a clutch hit (ever) or a solid pitching performance consistently. Arte relied of GMJr steroid infused stats in Texas and CJ hometown BS

There's more...but...

THEN

THERE'S

ALBERT

Star Struck Arte was amazed how St. Louis treated Albert earlier this season....but remember how they 'low-balled' him to re-sign? And how the fans didn't get all up in arms when he signed with the Halos. But Arte saw him strike lighting in the World Series and even at thirty freaking one...inks him for 10 crappy - no playoff wins...years.

ARTE is the problem. He's overrated as an owner. Beer prices are as high as ever...and so are the salaries for another mediocre year - with the best player in the game sitting home this post season. ..because of the god awful bullpens and lack of starting pitching.

SELL ARTE SELL...

 

 

I disagree with a lot of your conclusions on why he signed these guys, but you are right it didn’t work out. 

[nate]

Yes, Arte made a series of mistakes when it came to GM hires, and fires as well as his infatuation with Scioscia long after he was relevant.

They went from big spenders to penny pinchers to somewhere in between.  Arte and his spat with Boras and Hamilton.  Bad moves galore in FAcy.

Hoping that Arte sticks with Eppler long enough, but I have a feeling he is gone at the end of this season and we start all over again.

[Angel Oracle]

Matsui actually had a solid 2010 season with the Halos (.820 OPS).    The others?    They did indeed well underachieve.

[Claude]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Matsui actually had a solid 2010 season with the Halos (.820 OPS).    The others?    They did indeed well underachieve.

Choosing to go with Hamilton instead of a qualifying offer to Torii ended up setting us back 5 seasons and put Arte in FA signing rehab. We’ve truly wasted some solid MVP seasons by Trout. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Calzone 2

[Tank]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Matsui actually had a solid 2010 season with the Halos (.820 OPS).    The others?    They did indeed well underachieve.

Matsui was the exact opposite of clutch. a lot of his success seemed to come when it was too late to matter.

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Tanking is pathetic. And gay. And pathetically gay

And vegetarian.

[maestro]

Things change quickly. In 2009, ESPN had the Angels as the #1 franchise in all of American sports and the Clippers as the worst:

https://www.espn.com/espn/news/story?id=4297569

 

Winning makes everything look better and losing makes everything look way worse. The Angels seem to have addressed a lot of things that have made them fall from #1 to here (getting back into the international market, not drafting horrifically, having an actual organizational philosophy for development and scouting, no crippling contracts the last 5 years). I think that these changes have been made show a degree of self awareness and wouldn't really happen if they were all out dysfunctional. 

Now when we had Dipoto and all the media leaks and the conflict between the manager/GM and rumors of Pujols fighting people or whatever haha. THAT was dysfunction. But I feel like all that set us so far back and we've largely corrected it with having a chance of sustainable functionality (or whatever the opposite of dysfunction is lol)

Edited July 30, 2019 by kj_maestro

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, JoJo26 said:

I didn't read all the comments (whatever) but here's my take....it falls at the feet of Arte.

He hit an absolute grand slam signing Vladdy...then he went into Gene Autry mode - signing past their prime players OR last season heroics made Star-Struck Arte sign them:

Some examples:

Steve Finely: Hits homer to clinch division for Dodgers - Atre signs him. He Blows

King Kong Matsui - World Series MVP - Arte signs him - Ancient 

Josh Hamilton - Huge mistake - after all - even when he goes 0 for playoffs - he gets deservedly booed by fans - he doesn't care cuz "I play for my teammates"

CJ Wilson / GMJr - Both these guys did squat in Texas - never a clutch hit (ever) or a solid pitching performance consistently. Arte relied of GMJr steroid infused stats in Texas and CJ hometown BS

There's more...but...

THEN

THERE'S

ALBERT

Star Struck Arte was amazed how St. Louis treated Albert earlier this season....but remember how they 'low-balled' him to re-sign? And how the fans didn't get all up in arms when he signed with the Halos. But Arte saw him strike lighting in the World Series and even at thirty freaking one...inks him for 10 crappy - no playoff wins...years.

ARTE is the problem. He's overrated as an owner. Beer prices are as high as ever...and so are the salaries for another mediocre year - with the best player in the game sitting home this post season. ..because of the god awful bullpens and lack of starting pitching.

SELL ARTE SELL...

 

 

Hamilton was a huge bust, and hurt the franchise bad. The rest? Meh..

Finely sucked for sure. Moreso because we went that route instead of beltran (huge mistake). But he was cheap and only a 2 year deal. 

GMJ sucked... but they ignored it, and signed Hunter a year later. Ate the money.

Matsui started off slow, but finished pretty well. And again, 1 year deal. 

Albert was obviously a huge mistake, but lets be honest. He was signed in a different time. He was as sure a shot to be great into his mid to late 30s as anyone before him. But the game changed. (Trout could see the same thing happen...).

Again, the true problem wasnt simply the bad signings of FAs. It was the lack of player drafting and development that killed this team.

Off the top of my head, the previous decade or so, we drafted trout, skaggs, corbin, trumbo, grichuck, calhoun, bourjos, conger, garret richards, segura, shoemaker, and... and then it pretty much stops. (A few pen arms). A few of those guys have been very good, a few not so much. Thats not nearly enough to sustain.

You look at how much the offense improved this year with a few minor tweaks. That could have been the case all along. Simply average to slightly above average players, who are young and cheap. But we shut the bed in drafting. For YEARS... 

[Angel Oracle]

14 minutes ago, Tank said:

Matsui was the exact opposite of clutch. a lot of his success seemed to come when it was too late to matter.

I couldn't find the close and late stats for him in 2010, but his RISP OPS was .930. 

Supposedly, Bobby Bonds' 1977 season (37 HRs, 115 rbis) was king amongst Halos seasons looking a lot better in the stats than they actually were.  

[Angel Oracle]

I wouldn't worry about Trout in the same way as Pujols.    Trout doesn't have an exaggerated crouched stance for over 10,000 at bats, like Albert has done.

One could almost see a rapid decline in Albert, putting all of that 230-250 lbs of pressure on his feet and knees since two decades back.

[Angelsjunky]

The Angels narrative of the last two decades goes something like this, in as short a version as possible:

After four decades franchise mediocrity, they pulled off a miraculous World Series championship in 2002. Unless you're old enough to have lived moment to moment through that season, and also to have experience at least part of the 90s (their worst decade), you'll never really know how special it was. This prompted Mexican billionaire Arte Moreno to take interest, imagining visions of glory in SoCal. But despite the magic, it quickly proven to be flukey--or at least not backed up by lasting talent; Arte was hungry for more success so opened up the purse strings, allowing Stoneman to make some big splashes that along with a strong farm system helped the team to the best era in its history, reaching the postseason in five of the next six years (2004-09).

Over those six years there was an increasing sense of, "This is great, but when are we getting back to the Series?" (And "How the F*ck do we beat the Red Sox?"). After 2009 was another year of a great season but disappointing postseason, the Angel let a lot of their core go and replaced them with lesser players. 2010 was their worst year since 2003. Arte panicked and stressed the weak-minded Tony Reagins out, who made the first of three franchise-crippling moves in less than two years, trading fan-favorite Mike Napoli--the Kole Calhoun of the 00s--for Vernon Wells, who proceeded to completely collapse while being one of the highest paid players in the league.

2011 saw improvement, enough for the Angels to feel hopeful that 2010 was an aberration. Seeking to repeat 2004, Arte opened up the purse strings again and this time took an active hand in signing the best non-Bondsian hitter of the last decade. Meanwhile, the organization ignored signs of Albert's decline and his advancing age ("32"). Dipoto signed CJ Wilson, both improving the rotation and hurting the Rangers. Things looked bright. 

While the Angels once again failed to reach the postseason in 2012, it was the second year in a row that they improved in the win column - and of course it was also the first year of the Great One. Arte doubled down and the Angels did the obvious thing when you need starting pitching: they signed an aging and problematic outfielder in Josh Hamilton, surprising everyone. Albert's 2012 season was the worst of his career, but people assumed he just started slow because he missed home; for the last two-thirds of the year he was pretty typical Albert. Little could we know that Albert's career worst season up to that point, and first as an Angel, would also be his best as an Angel.

2013 was disastrous. Albert and Josh were both injured and/or bad.The Angels had no decent starters after Weaver and Wilson. Yet somehow, improbably, they won 98 games the following year, although were swept out of the ALDS. But hey, they were back to their winning ways, right? And they had a smart and hungry young GM, right?! And a manager who was adaptive to the changing baseball landscape. Right?!!?!

No. 2015 was steep drop from great to merely pretty good, and then 2016 was an utter disaster -- 74 wins being the lowest team record since the 90s. The team literally partied like it was 1999, but not in a good way. The Scioscia-Dipoto tension reached a breaking point and Dipoto quit, leaving the organization in shambles, from top to bottom.

Perhaps realizing that his meddling didn't help, and they needed a more even-keeled GM at the helm, Arte hired soft-spoken and quietly intelligent Billy Eppler, who began to turn things over from the ground up, bringing in his own crew, and shifting the entire way the organization scouted, drafted, and developed prospects. Presumably with Arte's support, he took a long-range view: build a perennial contender.

We're now in the third year of Eppler's tenure and so far the surface results haven't been great. 2017 and '18 were both the definition of mediocrity at the major league level, with two 80-win seasons. Part of the problem was a seemingly rare knack for having pitchers who need TJ surgery. But the farm system was improved rather radically. 2019 looks to be showing modest improvement, with some of that farm system helping the major league team, and more talent being developed. 

So while Eppler's Angels have not yet won 90 games or made the postseason, its only been three years in what is a long-range plan. There's room to be optimistic about the long-term, namely because:

1) They have the best player in baseball for the next 11+ years.

2) They have arguably the most exciting, interesting, and multi-talented player in baseball under club control for another four years.

3) Their major league team is getting younger and they have the best farm talent they've had in over a decade.

4) Albert's contract is almost done, and most of the other poorly conceived contracts are very short.

The franchise was highly dysfunctional, from 2010 to 2016. That changed with Eppler. From 2017-19 has been transitional, the early years of Eppler's leadership, and I would say decreasing degrees of dysfunction. Given how poorly run the franchise was from 2010-16, we can't judge Eppler on his first three years. But his next three years will be key. By next year, 2020, we should see the team clearly on the ascent. By 2021 they should be legit contenders, and by 2022 they should be vying for best in the division.

That is the hope, at least. But I think it fits Eppler's timeline and Arte's expectations. If the team continues to flounder for the next three years, we've got a really big problem that maybe Eppler can't solve.

[Pujols4MVP]

Are the Angels the Edmonton Oilers of MLB ? Mike Trout = Connor McDavid.

Since 2006 the Oilers have made the playoffs only twice but one of those was to the finals & the other time they got out of the first round at least.

Since 2006 the Angels have made the playoffs 4 times including being swept twice in 2007 & 2014 and only in 2009 did they get to the 2nd round.

The Angels and Oilers have had alot of different GMs in that time. The Oilers ownership has meddled in how the team is run, Arte used to meddle into who the Angels sign (Pujols etc).

[Angel Oracle]

Actually AJ, Eppler was hired in October 2015, and his first big move was within the first few months in acquiring Simba for Aybar and Newcomb.    This is year 4.  

[Pujols4MVP]

23 hours ago, Second Base said:

I do think this is a dysfunctional organization, and that the v problem is multifaceted.

1. The Angels never tanked - The fastest way to rebuild an organization into a winner is simply to tank. Worked for the Cubs, Royals, Dodgers, Astros, White Sox, Padres, etc.... You simply cut payroll, and get high draft picks for about 3-5 years, to build up the farm and use the savings to invest in major free agents and create a competitive window of 5 years. The Angels meanwhile have kept payroll the same for about 5 years while trying to rebuild a farm without top draft picks and previously being under the Baldoquin restrictions on international spending. The result has been a long series of mediocrity and a farm system that has now been rebuilt but still lacks the upside of top systems.

2. Eppler has tried to creatively solve problems by not spending money but has instead wasted one of the only things more valuable than money.... Time. And the irony is that once his creative solutions failed, he spent the money anyway.

3. Eppler's free agent track record is absolute garbage.

4. This team can't keep a good pitcher healthy to save its life.

------------------------

But the good thing about all of this is that it can be fixed.

1. The Angels didn't tank which meant they kept Trout and landed Ohtani. But at the same time, have lacked the upside prospects they need. Their competitive window begins in 2020 though, because that's when Adell arrives, and Rengifo, Thaiss, Barria, Suarez and Canning will talk have the experience and worked out the kinks and are ready to compete. This youth movement began last year, has been in full swing this year and should begin producing results next year. And 2020 is only the beginning. 2021 should see Marsh, Sandoval, Ortega and Chris Rodriguez. 2022 is going to be big with Jordyn Adams, Will Wilson, Kevin Maitan, Adrian Rondon, Jose Soriano and Hector Yan. 2023 will likely include some upside plays like Kochanowicz, Deveaux, Knowles, Uceta and Rivas.

2. Part of the reason Eppler was being creative in the first place is because the competitive window hadn't yet begun. But in 2020 and beyond, that's the window, and the infusion of youth lowers payroll substantially. So any needs that aren't solved internally will then be solved by spending big enough in free agency to remove the risk of mid tier gambles like Cozart. They can spend on more proven assets.

3. Again, past of what has made Eppler so bad in free agency is that he's been limited to spending in a dollar range that makes these investments risky, like Cozart, Cahill and Harvey.

4. Health appears to not have a specific formula in pitchers. The Angels have been very unlucky. Regression to the mean likely means they will enjoy better health.

5. Eppler doesn't have to focus on rebuilding an empty farm anymore. All he has to do is not let spending get out of control and completely destroy the farm like Dipoto did.

 

I strongly agree with this.

While tanking in MLB is not the same like it is in NHL/NBA, you have to do at least 3 years of taking for it to be worth it if & a team can stockpile alot of high end prospects with a high chance they strike gold with some of them like the Astros, Cubs, Dodgers etc and its not even completely about the 1st round picks, about having earlier picks in every round of the draft.

[Angelsjunky]

The time the Angels would have tanked would have been after 2016, when they went 74-88. In 2014 they won 98 games; in 2015 they won 85 games, so there was the hope that they could bounce back and at least win 90. As AO pointed out, Eppler started with a big splash, trading for Simmons. 

But then they lost 74 games in 2016. If you remember, that was the year they lost Richards and Skaggs and Heaney and Shoemaker and Tropeano - their whole rotation, basically. Jered Weaver was in full gumby mode.

So let say Eppler looked into the future and realized that the team would be mediocre for the next three years. "Hey Arte, let's tank so that by 2021 or 22 we'll have a few amazing draft picks reaching the majors and be really good."

Arte would then remind him, "What about Trout? Will Mike wade through years of suckitude and then re-sign?"

Further more, what parts could be shed after 2016? I suppose they could have traded Calhoun, Cron, Shoemaker (they did trade Cron, but a year later). Maybe a reliever or two. But could they have really tanked? Replacing thosse guys with replacement players might drop them to a 75ish win team, so it still isn't quite tanking.

If I were to look back at Eppler's decisions in hindsight, aside from the obvious blunders--Cozart, Harvey, Cahill, Allen--I wish he had been more aggressive about trading at the deadline. Yusmeiro Petit, Blake Parker and Bud Norris all could have been traded for prospects in July of 2017. The Angels were 51-55 on July 31, 18 games out of 1st, 5.5 behind the 2nd wildcard with five teams ahead of them in the wildcard race.

Hmm...deja vu. Eppler didn't cut his losses then. I hope he does now, because we're in a similar situation. Of course the Angels don't have many good players to trade, or at least that they want to trade; Buttrey, Robles, Bedrosian, and Anderson are all young and worth keeping for next year and beyond. But Goodwin? Maybe Cole and/or Pena? If they can get anything for Lucroy or Cahill? At this point I think Kole has to be on the table.

Trade away, Billy. 

[Pujols4MVP]

13 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

The time the Angels would have tanked would have been after 2016, when they went 74-88. In 2014 they won 98 games; in 2015 they won 85 games, so there was the hope that they could bounce back and at least win 90. As AO pointed out, Eppler started with a big splash, trading for Simmons. 

But then they lost 74 games in 2016. If you remember, that was the year they lost Richards and Skaggs and Heaney and Shoemaker and Tropeano - their whole rotation, basically. Jered Weaver was in full gumby mode.

So let say Eppler looked into the future and realized that the team would be mediocre for the next three years. "Hey Arte, let's tank so that by 2021 or 22 we'll have a few amazing draft picks reaching the majors and be really good."

Arte would then remind him, "What about Trout? Will Mike wade through years of suckitude and then re-sign?"

Further more, what parts could be shed after 2016? I suppose they could have traded Calhoun, Cron, Shoemaker (they did trade Cron, but a year later). Maybe a reliever or two. But could they have really tanked? Replacing thosse guys with replacement players might drop them to a 75ish win team, so it still isn't quite tanking.

If I were to look back at Eppler's decisions in hindsight, aside from the obvious blunders--Cozart, Harvey, Cahill, Allen--I wish he had been more aggressive about trading at the deadline. Yusmeiro Petit, Blake Parker and Bud Norris all could have been traded for prospects in July of 2017. The Angels were 51-55 on July 31, 18 games out of 1st, 5.5 behind the 2nd wildcard with five teams ahead of them in the wildcard race.

Hmm...deja vu. Eppler didn't cut his losses then. I hope he does now, because we're in a similar situation. Of course the Angels don't have many good players to trade, or at least that they want to trade; Buttrey, Robles, Bedrosian, and Anderson are all young and worth keeping for next year and beyond. But Goodwin? Maybe Cole and/or Pena? If they can get anything for Lucroy or Cahill? At this point I think Kole has to be on the table.

Trade away, Billy. 

Kole seems like a guy playing hard to get a contract extension, if he doesn't get it and they pick up his option he'll probably have another great year so that when he becomes a FA he gets a 5 to 6 year deal from some team & then just plays on cruise control for the duration of the contract. Thats why i hope he does get traded, either this year or next year if his option is picked up.

[Angelsjunky]

1 minute ago, Pujols4MVP said:

Kole seems like a guy playing hard to get a contract extension, if he doesn't get it and they pick up his option he'll probably have another great year so that when he becomes a FA he gets a 5 to 6 year deal from some team & then just plays on cruise control for the duration of the contract.

There is no way he gets 5-6 years. Maybe five years ago he would have gotten 4-5 years, but the market has changed. He's an average regular going into his age 32 season. I would guess something like 3/$40M at best, and maybe not even that.

[Lou]

lol @ Kole getting a 5-6 yr deal.

[thebloob]

I’d like to nominate the reds for the list.  

 

Can someone explain why an organization would trade away Puig and their #1 prospect for an expiring contract when they have no chance of the playoffs?

 

is Bauer under control through 2020.  I’m confused now.  Saw two different things in different places. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

There is no way he gets 5-6 years. Maybe five years ago he would have gotten 4-5 years, but the market has changed. He's an average regular going into his age 32 season. I would guess something like 3/$40M at best, and maybe not even that.

I think that might be a little too generous, to be honest.

Like you said, 5 years ago maybe. But id almost see it more like 2, with an option year, less than 30 guaranteed.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ten ocho recon scout

[Angelsjunky]

3 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I think that might be a little too generous, to be honest.

Like you saud, 5 years ago maybe. But id almost see it more like 2, with an option year, less than 30 guaranteed.

Probably. Which is why I said "3/$40 at best, and maybe not even that." I would think 2/$25-30M is more likely, with some kind of option.

[Angelsjunky]

4 hours ago, thebloob said:

I’d like to nominate the reds for the list.  

 

Can someone explain why an organization would trade away Puig and their #1 prospect for an expiring contract when they have no chance of the playoffs?

 

is Bauer under control through 2020.  I’m confused now.  Saw two different things in different places. 

He is under club control through 2020, so next year the Reds will have a pretty damn good rotation. But they gave up a lot - maybe less so Puig, moreso Taylor Trammell. They'll need to bolster their lineup, but I think they want to contend next year.

[Docwaukee]

42 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Probably. Which is why I said "3/$40 at best, and maybe not even that." I would think 2/$25-30M is more likely, with some kind of option.

don't even think he gets that much.  He'll be 32 in october and has a year of misery on his docket.  I think he goes year to year for the rest of his career.  Maybe 1/8 next year with an option.  

[JoJo26]

On 7/30/2019 at 5:06 PM, Angel Oracle said:

Actually AJ, Eppler was hired in October 2015, and his first big move was within the first few months in acquiring Simba for Aybar and Newcomb.    This is year 4.  

That was a great trade....however...should'd traded FUBAR and kept Jean Segura years ago...but Arte loved little Erick....