"The Root of the Angels' Problems..."

[eaterfan]

Just now, Dochalo said:

that was significant as well

2005 - peter bourjos, trevor bell, sean o'sullivan

2006 - hank conger, jordan walden

2007 - john bachanov, an unsigned matt harvey, andrew romine

2008 - chatwood, will smith, michael kohn, johnny hellweg.  

That is literally on major leaguer, a bench guy and a couple relievers from 4 drafts in a row.  

Geez. So basically from 2005-2015 we had one good draft. 

Had we hit on those early drafts we actually may have been competitive in the early Trout years. Kendrick, Aybar, Pujols, Weaver, Trout is certainly a good start. Just needed some fill in pieces.

[tomsred]

Drafting players isn't a sure thing, no matter how good the scouting department actually performs.  So no team has a perfect run.  However, it is a very important process, and can make a huge difference.  To essentially give up on prospects like Dipoto did, and is still doing so in Seattle, is just wrong, and you can't win that way.  So you have to pour a lot of money into the process, hire the best people you possibly can for scouting and in the organization for development of drafted players, and hope for the best.  That's why I believe Eppler is on the best path. It is going to take some time, recovery is tough.  The latest I saw was that our farm system was ranked 12th after the trade deadline, that's a really big improvement from 30th.  And guess who is now 30th, the Mariners.  Congratulations to DiPoto for running two teams down to 30th in farm system rankings in this decade.  Well played Jerry, LOL!  I am looking for a top ten after next year's draft out of Eppler.  In the meantime the only thing left is to gamble and patch things together by risking some on free agent signings.  It didn't work out this year, but it's a pretty unpredictable process, it just might next year.  Eventually the farm will overhaul and transform this team if no one blows it up again.

[eligrba]

57 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

This is not just about Eppler. Dallas was supposed to replace Glaus.  That didn't work out and the Angels haven't replaced him since.  They tried with Figgins but he left for Seattle.  Hell, the Angels couldn't even sign Beltre even though he wanted to play here.  It's straight incompetence and that's only the black hole at 3rd.  I'm very jealous of other ORGs like the Red Sox, Yankees, Cards etc.  They have such smart people in charge and win World Series.  They knww what they're doing.  A lot of times, the Angels are running around with their heads cut off.  They've had the best player in baseball for 6 years and haven't won a damn playoff series and only got there once.  It's pathetic. Especially since the Angels play in a big market. Oh and crap on Dipoto all you want but he did get Segura back.  I was very opposed to him being traded at the time and thought it was nuts unless they resigned Grienke.  Dipoto went ahead and got back Segura like the Angels should have done.  Still haven't replaced Kendrick at 2nd and Segura could have been that replacement.  More incompetence.

Didn't Dipoto trade Segura for a two month rental of Grienke?  Explain how the Angels should have "got back Segura" after being traded to Milwaukee?  Segura only played 2B for one year and was not very good.  Granted he hit better as a 2b than anything the Angels had, but his fielding was not very good.

[Taylor]

I like how some people are still blaming Scioscia after reading Mulwin's post.

[eaterfan]

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it has to do with scouting. I think a lot of it is player development. There is no way a team can be that bad for a decade and this good for 3 years in a row. I think Eppler has done a tremendous job in that area.

[eligrba]

2 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

In another thread, Jeff Fletcher stated: "The root of the Angels' problems is they ignored the farm system from about 2010-2015".

While that may seem obvious to some, I found it interesting how quickly a team that had what was considered a top 10 (at least) farm system a decade ago could see it all disappear.

So, what happened prior to 2010? 

In 2009, we had one of the greatest 1st rounds you could want.  With back-to-back picks in the 1st round (thanks to KRod and Teixeira signing with a couple of NY teams), Angels selected Randal Grichuk (8.1 WAR) and Mike Trout (62 WAR), which was followed by supplemental 1st round picks of Tyler Skaggs (2.8 WAR) and Garrett Richards (7.4 WAR).  On top of that embarrassment of riches, they drafted Patrick Corbin (11 WAR) in the 2nd round.   They essentially nailed of 5 of their first 6 picks if you go by the idea that you are drafting with the hope of selecting future MLB starters one day.  At this point, while Tony Reagins was entering his 2nd year as General Manager, Eddie Bane was running the drafts and, wow, it couldn't have worked out better.

2010: After 2009, though, things changed.  Per some peeps here, the 2010 draft, which would have been directed by Eddie Bane, was usurped by Tony Reagins, and the draft philosophy changed.  This was significant because the Angels, like 2009, had 5 picks in the 1st round and, with another strong draft, could essentially cement the foundation of their farm for the next 2-3 years.  However, what happened was anything but a success.  The Angels selected Kaleb Cowart (-0.4 WAR), Cam Bedrosian (0.5 WAR), and three guys that never made it to the majors in Chevy Clarke, Taylor Lindsey, and Ryan Bolden.  Clarke ended up in the Independent league and is currently a teammate of 53 year old Rafael Palmeiro on the Cleburne Railroaders, Lindsey was traded for Huston Street and his last season was 2016, and Ryan Bolden was tragically killed soon after retiring.  On a positive note, in the 8th round, they selected future starting right fielder Kole Calhoun

Possible alternatives that could have been drafted: Mike Foltynewicz (2.5 WAR), Christian Yelich (22.2 WAR), Aaron Sanchez (9.3 WAR), Noah Syndergaard (11.6 WAR), Taijuan Walker (6.0 WAR), Nick Castellanos (2.9 WAR)

2011: After the 2010 draft, Eddie Bane left the organization and, in contrast of the previous two seasons, the Angels only had 1 pick in the first two rounds due to losing their 2nd round pick with the Scott Downs (0.4 WAR in three seasons with the Angels) signing.  Their loan pick?  C.J. Cron (4.2 WAR) at the 17th overall.  The only other notable pick from that draft was Mike Clevinger (6.5 WAR) in the 4th round.  Fun fact: Clevinger was traded in the summer of 2014 by then GM Jerry Dipoto for 29 year old reliever, Vinne Pestano.  Clevinger is currently a fixture in the Indians rotation, while Vinnie lasted one more season in the MLB

Possible alternatives: Tyler Anderson (8.1 WAR), Kolten Wong (9.7 WAR), Jackie Bradley Jr (12.3 WAR), Michael Fulmer (9.9 WAR), Trevor Story (9.3 WAR), Blake Snell (6.1 WAR).  

2012: So, yeah, 2012 happened..this was Dipoto's first season as GM of the Angels and he and Arte decided to go balls-deep into Free Agency signing by signing Albert Pujols (yeah, I know) and CJ Wilson, meaning they did not have a draft pick until the 3rd round.  In that round they selected R.J. Alvarez (-0.6 WAR) whose only contribution to the Angels turned out to be being included in a trade for Huston Street.

Possible alternatives from the first three rounds: Michael Wacha (7.4 WAR), Marcus Stroman (10.6 WAR), Zach Eflin (1.6 WAR), Jose Berrios (3.3 WAR), Daniel Robertson (3.3 WAR), Stephen Piscotty (5.3 WAR), Mitch Haniger (6.3 WAR), Joey Gallo (4.0 WAR), Lance McCullers (5.6 WAR), Alex Wood (11.7 WAR), Edwon Diaz (4.4 WAR).

2013: Like a moth to a flame, Free Agents beckoned Dipoto again and we signed stable genious Josh Hamilton to a 5 year deal that in no way sucked.   As a result, the Angels didn't have a pick until the 2nd round but, oh, what a pick it was: Hunter Green.  Green, a 17 year old southpaw, pitched a total of 8 G (7 GS) for the Angels' rookie level team in AZ walking more than a struck out, soon after retiring due to vague injuries and general disinterest.  Other notable Angels names from that draft: Kenyan Middleton in the 3rd round and Michael Hermosillo  in the 28th round.

Possible alternatives: Aaron Judge (12.8 WAR), Sean Manaea (7.4 WAR), Corey Knebel (4.1 WAR)

2014: This draft, Dipoto actually had a draft pick to work with and it is hard to argue with his choice: Sean Newcomb (2.8 WAR).  Some other names from that draft you might recognize: Joey Gatto, Jake Jewell, Bo Way, Zack Houchins.

Possible alternative: Matt Chapman (9.3 WAR)

2015: Fresh off a 98 win season, and first round playoff sweep, things appeared to stable and ascending in Anaheim...little did we know that we'd be just months away from a Jerry Dipoto bitch-fit which would include a power-play ultimatum, a swift middle-finger from Arte, Scioscia and the players, and Jerry taking his ball and going home.  Prior to that, though,  there was the draft.  Due to the success of the previous season, the Angels picked late and with fist-pumping resound selected catching prospect Taylor Ward.  It was hard to determine what elicited more confusion: how early in the draft he was selected, given his initial projection, or the enthusiasm in the Angels reacted to his selection.  However, despite a less than dominant start, Ward may well still be an impact pick as, since he was moved to 3B this season, he's put up .345 .453 .973 OPS in AA/AAA with a seemingly solid command of the strike zone, some newfound speed as a result of moving from the catching position, and uptick in power.  Additionally, top 100 prospect Jahmai Jones was selected in the 2nd round and current 25 man roster infielder David Fletcher (0.9 WAR) was selected in the 4th round.  Well, at least he left us something to remember him by...

Possible alternatives: Mike Soroka, Scott Kingery, Andrew Suarez

Additionally, during his tenor, Dipoto completed these transactions:

 - Tyler Chatwood (8.7 WAR after leaving Angels) for Chris Ianetta (6.2 WAR with Angels)

 - Jean Segura (16.4 WAR) for Zack Greinke (1.5 WAR with the Angels)

 - Ervin Santana (14.1 WAR since leaving Angels) for Brandon Sisk 

 - Jordan Walden for Tommy Hansen

 - Kendrys Morales for Jason Vargas 

 - Randall Grichuk and Peter Bourjos for David Freese and Fernando Salas

 - Mark Trumbo for Tyler Skaggs and Hector Santiago

 - Ernesto Frieri for Jason Grilli

 - Traded a lot of Rondon's for Huston Street

 - Howie Kendrick for Andrew Heaney

 - Kevin Jepsen for Matt Joyce

 (credit to "gotbeer" transaction thread : 

So, yeah, many years with missed picks, lack of picks, and trading of previously picked talent will leave you barren.

 -    

Thanks for doing this.  Great read.

[eligrba]

7 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it has to do with scouting. I think a lot of it is player development. There is no way a team can be that bad for a decade and this good for 3 years in a row. I think Eppler has done a tremendous job in that area.

Have you been around long enough to remember the Kansas City Royals Baseball Academy in the 70's?

[eaterfan]

12 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Have you been around long enough to remember the Kansas City Royals Baseball Academy in the 70's?

Not quite long enough.

[Lou]

44 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

that was significant as well

2005 - peter bourjos, trevor bell, sean o'sullivan

2006 - hank conger, jordan walden

2007 - john bachanov, an unsigned matt harvey, andrew romine

2008 - chatwood, will smith, michael kohn, johnny hellweg.  

That is literally on major leaguer, a bench guy and a couple relievers from 4 drafts in a row.  

and a lot of people here still long for the days of Eddie Bane

[failos]

Bring back Eddie Bane. I hate how he’s in focking Boston of all places 

[Dick B Back]

I miss Tom Kotchman as Florida scout and either rookie or A-Ball manager, can’t remember which it was. If I remember right, he signed quite a few who ended up being decent or better players, i.e. Howie and Shields.

Had some kind of falling out after being with the Angels in these capacities for years.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

Dipoto traded away too much in an effort to win, its who he is, its exactly what hes doing now in Sea and i suspect they too will pay the price for it.  It didnt work out for us and i dont think it will for them either.

Dipoto has traded away almost every valuable or even semi-valuable prospect. Leaving Seattle with but 1 top 100 prospect in baseball, Kyle Lewis (#83). Dipoto went all in, trading prospects to acquire slot money in hopes of signing Ohtani. He has kept up his trading frenzy in hopes of ending Seattle's playoff drought.

After gaining a big lead in the second WC race in June the M's have come down to earth in July, while the A's have gone on tear and have taking a 1/2 game lead for the second wild card on Aug. 2. If Seattle misses the playoffs again this year, it may be long time before the come this close again, with the 2nd worst farm system in baseball.

[eligrba]

9 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Dipoto has traded away almost every valuable or even semi-valuable prospect. Leaving Seattle with but 1 top 100 prospect in baseball, Kyle Lewis (#83). Dipoto went all in, trading prospects to acquire slot money in hopes of signing Ohtani. He has kept up his trading frenzy in hopes of ending Seattle's playoff drought.

After gaining a big lead in the second WC race in June the M's have come down to earth in July, while the A's have gone on tear and have taking a 1/2 game lead for the second wild card on Aug. 2. If Seattle misses the playoffs again this year, it may be long time before the come this close again, with the 2nd worst farm system in baseball.

Fortunately for Seattle, they have extended their GM's contract, who in turn extended the manager's contract to ensure organizational stability.

[mulwin444]

4 minutes ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Dipoto has traded away almost every valuable or even semi-valuable prospect. Leaving Seattle with but 1 top 100 prospect in baseball, Kyle Lewis (#83). Dipoto went all in, trading prospects to acquire slot money in hopes of signing Ohtani. He has kept up his trading frenzy in hopes of ending Seattle's playoff drought.

After gaining a big lead in the second WC race in June the M's have come down to earth in July, while the A's have gone on tear and have taking a 1/2 game lead for the second wild card on Aug. 2. If Seattle misses the playoffs again this year, it may be long time before the come this close again, with the 2nd worst farm system in baseball.

Yeah, surprised this wasn't mentioned more.  Seattle fell a 1/2 game behind the A's for the second Wild Card, is 4-6 in their last 10 and have a -13 Run Differential...looks like it's finally catching up to them.  

On July 3rd, they were 55-31, now they are 63-46 (8-15).  I'm not sold on Oakland's rotation but they have a better offense than Seattle and they have some nice BP pieces.  Ultimately, though, I think either of them are beaten by NYY in the WC game.

[Docwaukee]

13 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of it has to do with scouting. I think a lot of it is player development. There is no way a team can be that bad for a decade and this good for 3 years in a row. I think Eppler has done a tremendous job in that area.

I think it comes down to scouting and drafting players that fit into your development model.  both go hand in hand.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

14 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

I think it comes down to scouting and drafting players that fit into your development model.  both go hand in hand.  

One thing Ive been told is that Sosh's big hangup is strikeouts. Thats his big pet peeve. So (and I dont know if our drafts reflect it) in order to make it here, they preach contact throughout the minors. Maybe thats a problem. Maybe (i dont know) were making too big of an issue about that vs focusing on other things.

Not that power is everything, but morales, trumbo and trout are the only power guys weve developed in more than a decade...i guess cron fits in there, too. 

[Second Base]

It wasn't just poor drafting by the Angels for a solid 9/10 consecutive seasons, though that will torpedo any team.

It also included a complete disaster in Latin America, which involved Arte firing every director, coordinator and scout in the organization that had anything to do with our system down there.

To be clear, the Angels weren't doing anything that any other team wasn't also guilty of. The only difference is Arte morally couldn't stand by it while 29 other owners were perfectly fine with screwing kids out of money by skimming off the top.

In a country and system where it's all about who you know, and everyone doing "favors" for one another, the Angels international system basically committed suicide by clearing house like that. They went almost a decade without signing a single top international prosoect.

Then Dipoto came along and made it worse by trading his international money away and then spending 15 million dollars on an unknown kid with limited upside named Baldoquin.

Dipoto also thought it was a good idea to trade away prospects like Segura and Clevinger.

And for those keeping score, Eppler has spent every single season since being hired undoing everything Dipoto did. 

- Dipoto spent us into a hole. Eppler went three years without signing a single notable free agent, thus getting the budget back under control.

- Dipoto traded our top prospects, and Eppler has done something similar, the difference is Eppler hasn't traded our top prospects, just lower level ones plus a Dipoto pick in Nuke.

- Dipoto drafted low upside collegiate pitchers that topped out in AAA, and since being brought on, Eppler has drafted upside position players from high school, completely restocking the system with internal replacements and trade currency.

- Dipoto either ignored the international prospects or screwed the system by spending more on Baldoquin than he could've spent on Vlad Guerrero Jr. In the mean time, Eppler's gone out and landed Ohtani, Maitan, Soto, Deveaux, Knowles, Uceta and now Alex Ramirez (once he turns 16 in a couple weeks). 

Again, just undoing everything Dipoto screwed up. We haven't even had a chance to see what Eppler can do on his own because he's been too limited fixing others mistakes.

[Second Base]

So basically I'm saying the root of the Angels problems were Reagins and Dipoto seeing who can break a system worse. Dipoto won,

[JoJo26]

Eddie Bane getting THE TURK....and Arte getting all star-crossed with late season brilliance (Matsui, Finley, GMJr., Albert, Josh...)

He hit a granny with Vladdy.....downhill ever since.

[HaloNArizona]

2 hours ago, eligrba said:

Didn't Dipoto trade Segura for a two month rental of Grienke?  Explain how the Angels should have "got back Segura" after being traded to Milwaukee?  Segura only played 2B for one year and was not very good.  Granted he hit better as a 2b than anything the Angels had, but his fielding was not very good.

Dipoto has Segura in Seattle

[T.G.]

It's going to be a long rest of the season... excruciatingly painful Fall and a brutal winter... while everyone gives their opinion on what's wrong, what needs to be done, etc.

But from this pain...

Will come some good material for this message board.

[GrittyVeterans]

Arte is to blame moreso than Dipoto. This mess is almost all him. Ask yourself who was the main guy involved in the Pujols and Scioscia deals? It was Arte

He went unhinged for about 5-6 years after Stoneman left and it killed us. He meddled in personnel decisions, ignored the foreign market for players, gave Scioscia too much power by hiring a patsy GM like Reagins

This mess is 95% on him. 

Hes spent a lot of money and tried to win and I respect him for it. He did it in a very dumb way for a significant amount of time there and it has cost his franchise dearly

we can only hope the lessons were finally learned

[GrittyVeterans]

You guys sound like bitter ex-wives blaming  Scioscia and Dipoto for the Angels entire downfall. It’s the dude who gave them power. It’s his team and he fucked up. It’d be like blaming a regional store manager if Walmart went completely out of business

 

[Taylor]

12 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Arte is to blame moreso than Dipoto. This mess is almost all him. Ask yourself who was the main guy involved in the Pujols and Scioscia deals? It was Arte

He went unhinged for about 5-6 years after Stoneman left and it killed us. He meddled in personnel decisions, ignored the foreign market for players, gave Scioscia too much power by hiring a patsy GM like Reagins

This mess is 95% on him. 

Hes spent a lot of money and tried to win and I respect him for it. He did it in a very dumb way for a significant amount of time there and it has cost his franchise dearly

we can only hope the lessons were finally learned

Dipoto would be a great GM under a different owner.

[GrittyVeterans]

4 minutes ago, Taylor said:

Dipoto would be a great GM under a different owner.

Who hired Dipoto? The owner. How is this mess on Dipoto moreso than Arte? Angels were on a terrible path towards failure before we even knew who Jerry Dipoto was

It’s nonsensical to blame anyone more than the guy who was running the show

Should be old news