Thoughts and Prayers

[Tank]

flop, do you think there's anything that could have been done legally (ban on large ammo clips, ban on that addition to the AR15, etc) to stop or slow down the vegas shooter?

[Stradling]

I’ll answer that tank.  The simple answer is no, but putting a law into place now may be able to prevent future attacks.  When I saw future I think it will take generations to solve anything once a law is put into place.  Their going to need to offer $$$ for guns in order to get some off the street.  I don’t really have any of these answers, but those are my thoughts.  

[Jason]

8 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Ben Shapiro is gigantic piece of shit.  He's a glorified YouTube commentator. 

I'm assuming you feel this way about most conservative personalities 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

flop, do you think there's anything that could have been done legally (ban on large ammo clips, ban on that addition to the AR15, etc) to stop or slow down the vegas shooter?

Its hard for me to answer that... because for the most part, no, not really.  Even a complete ban on guns of all kinds likely doesnt stop something bad from happening in some form.  But i also think thats the wrong question.  Bear with me as this wont be short...

Sure we could argue banning assault style weapons from being sold legally, but that wont stop the black market.   He made up his mind to kill and planed this for a long time, this wasnt some spur of the moment thing.  There is little reason to suspect he might not have still found a way to procure the weapons he wanted.   There was no legal reason at any point to deny him under even the most stringent of laws that i have read to date about him.

I guess for me the one possible option would be better reporting and registration.  Why was he sold so many?  Thats the one part that bothers me.  I dont know yet if they were all from the same shop from what ive read i suspect not but IF we had some sort of national database that would flag it when a person buys an arsenal, this maybe he could have been stopped as far as legal sales, but again that wont stop illegal.  

Then again, if we did prevent him from getting guns perhaps he would have just driven a bomb into the crowd and set that off instead since he never planned to walk away from it so its likely we would have just had a different kind of tragedy and people calling for a ban on fertilizer.  The assumption that banning guns of any kind prevents this is simply foolhardy in my view.  People have committed atrocities long before there were guns, and will long after.  We are simply a flawed animal.  He decided to kill a lot of people, it isnt like guns are the only way to do that.  there is zero logical reason to expect he would have simply changes his mind and not been insane.  His actions were the result of his insanity, not the cause. 

I guess for me the real question is the why, not the how.  A person doesnt wake up one day to this, its a low burn before a snap.  He clearly snapped months or years ago to begin this plan, yet so far absolutely noone knows about it?  I find that unlikely.  The real question for me is why, not how.  The how doesnt tell us anything, never has... the why tells the story.  So far ive seen a lot of people up in air over guns, race, politics, literally trying to take every possible advantage off the deaths of other human beings, and not one of the asking the why, focused only on the how and how it benefits them and their viewpoints.   What drove this man to do something so heinous should matter far more than how he did it in my opinion.  

We are breeding these lunatics by de-humanizing each other... if you see the other person as less than you its much easier to ignore them and their views, and thats what we are today.  A society that literally thinks everyone else is sub-human neanderthals for having the nerve to disagree.   We cheer a celebrity for talking about blowing up the white house or beheading the president.  Even if he is a colossal prick thats not right and should not be acceptable.  We make heroes out of people rioting and beating other people, over politics?  We accuse the other side of the most vile things, without any proof or logic, for now reason other than they dont agree with us.    Is it any shock we are seeing these things are becoming more common in that kind of atmosphere?   We are literally encouraging it to happen to further agendas. 

[Jason]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

I guess for me the real question is the why, not the how.  A person doesnt wake up one day to this, its a low burn before a snap.  He clearly snapped months or years ago to begin this plan, yet so far absolutely noone knows about it?  I find that unlikely.  The real question for me is why, not how.  The how doesnt tell us anything, never has... the why tells the story.  So far ive seen a lot of people up in air over guns, race, politics, literally trying to take every possible advantage off the deaths of other human beings, and not one of the asking the why, focused only on the how and how it benefits them and their viewpoints.   What drove this man to do something so heinous should matter far more than how he did it in my opinion.  

We are breeding these lunatics by de-humanizing each other... if you see the other person as less than you its much easier to ignore them and their views, and thats what we are today.  A society that literally thinks everyone else is sub-human neanderthals for having the nerve to disagree.   We cheer a celebrity for talking about blowing up the white house or beheading the president.  Even if he is a colossal prick thats not right and should not be acceptable.  We make heroes out of people rioting and beating other people, over politics?  We accuse the other side of the most vile things, without any proof or logic, for now reason other than they dont agree with us.    Is it any shock we are seeing these things are becoming more common in that kind of atmosphere?   We are literally encouraging it to happen to further agendas. 

The why isn't being discussed because personal accountability is a thing of the past. It's just easier to blame the NRA. You are absolutely right about the devaluation of human life and desensitization towards violence 

[UndertheHalo]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

I'm assuming you feel this way about most conservative personalities 

Sort of an unfair assumption isn't it.  He's an abrasive bully that basically holds all the same positions as Anne Coulter.  Do I dislike Anne Coulter.  Intensely.  Are you saying that the entire conservative sphere subscribes to the far, far right positions that Anne Shapiro and Ben Shapiro hold ? 

I don't believe so.  So no, I do not intensely dislike most conservative commentators.  

[Jason]

20 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Sort of an unfair assumption isn't it.  He's an abrasive bully that basically holds all the same positions as Anne Coulter.  Do I dislike Anne Coulter.  Intensely.  Are you saying that the entire conservative sphere subscribes to the far, far right positions that Anne Shapiro and Ben Shapiro hold ? 

I don't believe so.  So no, I do not intensely dislike most conservative commentators.  

So which one's can you find common ground with? I would say Coulter and Milo are far right, Shapiro not as much

[UndertheHalo]

30 minutes ago, Jason said:

So which one's can you find common ground with? I would say Coulter and Milo are far right, Shapiro not as much

Milo isn't a commentator and he has no political ideology.  He's a cartoon character that says awful things to get a reaction.  

Anne Coulter is a scum bag that also says awful things but also has a political ideology that is identifiable.  Shapiro, holds basically the same positions on almost all topics.  He's not so different, he's just a bit less insulting when he makes his points.  Just a little bit to be clear.  He is awful imo. 

Conservative commentators I don't mind.  I don't know.  Laura Ingraham.  Believe it or not I don't dislike Bill O'reilly.  Glen Beck I believe is genuinely remorseful for some of his previous garbage.  I disagree with most of his stuff but do not dislike him.  I've read books written by both O'Reilly and Beck btw. SE Cupp i don't dislike.   There are many others.  Theres  this guy Bill Maher has on all the time but I can't think of his name.  Sorry. 

If you care to know, mostly what I genuinely dislike is the nationalistic stuff.  It's unfortunate that stuff has taken over so much of the conservative space. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by UndertheHalo

[Adam]

Speaking of commentators. I love Michael Malice. He's eccentric AF. If you have 25 minutes, this is great. Part II was just posted today.

He makes a great point about the two primary political ideologies and culture. 

 

[UndertheHalo]

he's amusing to listen to.  i don't understand the appeal of anarchism.  

[floplag]

15 hours ago, Jason said:

The why isn't being discussed because personal accountability is a thing of the past. It's just easier to blame the NRA. You are absolutely right about the devaluation of human life and desensitization towards violence 

And this is the real problem as far as im concerned.  Everything is someone elses fault.. parent, teachers, cops... its all bullshit.

[GrittyVeterans]

Taking millions of guns away is as unrealistic as Trump saying he wants to deport millions of people. It just isn't happening. I'd be in favor of having stricter background checks and making all semi-automatic weapons illegal. Tough to say if it will even make that much of a difference though. We have so many disgruntled people in this nation because of politics, it's getting scary. . 

[Jason]

32 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Taking millions of guns away is as unrealistic as Trump saying he wants to deport millions of people. It just isn't happening. I'd be in favor of having stricter background checks and making all semi-automatic weapons illegal. Tough to say if it will even make that much of a difference though. We have so many disgruntled people in this nation because of politics, it's getting scary. . 

He said that? By the way the vast majority of guns sold in the US are semi automatic. Just curious what a stricter background check looks like 

[Make Angels Great Again]

2 hours ago, GrittyVeterans said:

Taking millions of guns away is as unrealistic as Trump saying he wants to deport millions of people. It just isn't happening. I'd be in favor of having stricter background checks and making all semi-automatic weapons illegal. Tough to say if it will even make that much of a difference though. We have so many disgruntled people in this nation because of politics, it's getting scary. . 

 

Technically, literally all guns are semi-automatic.

[Jason]

18 minutes ago, Make Angels Great Again said:

 

Technically, literally all guns are semi-automatic.

Nope. Pumps, single actions, bolt actions and breech action do not automatically chamber another round after the trigger is pulled. 

[GrittyVeterans]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

He said that? By the way the vast majority of guns sold in the US are semi automatic. Just curious what a stricter background check looks like 

During the campaign he did I believe. He has since moved back on it, since it is completely unrealistic, like I said.

Stricter background check means having to have more than a US ID to by a gun. Competency checks, etc. No it won't solve everything but you can try better than they are right now

[Jason]

10 minutes ago, GrittyVeterans said:

During the campaign he did I believe. He has since moved back on it, since it is completely unrealistic, like I said.

Stricter background check means having to have more than a US ID to by a gun. Competency checks, etc. No it won't solve everything but you can try better than they are right now

Who makes that determination? If there is due process involved then I am OK with that too.

[GrittyVeterans]

Just now, Jason said:

Who makes that determination? If there is due process involved then I am OK with that too.

That is the tricky question. I would imagine a combination of doctors/government officials would be making the determination, but I'm not an expert on how this stuff works. If you have a mental illness, tough shit, you can't buy a gun. That could be seen as a violation of rights but oh well. Plenty of other hobbies to pick up in life

[RallyMo]

On 10/4/2017 at 11:14 AM, Geoff said:

"My colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States," Leah Libresco, a statistician who used to work for the data journalism site, writes in The Washington Post. "We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I'd lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence." 

Interesting

 

 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

[red321]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/19/just-three-percent-of-adults-own-half-of-americas-guns/

 

Washington post had an article on study that was done back in 2016 on US gun ownership. Not sure if others have found similar numbers.

78% of people don't own a gun

19% own 50% of guns 

3% own the other 50% and own on average 17 guns apiece.

its estimated there are around 265 million plus. I do know other studies say there are more guns in circulation  

 

 

[UndertheHalo]

9 minutes ago, RallyMo said:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/4/16418754/gun-control-washington-post?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook

i wasn't impressed with Librescos article at all. 

Someone a few pages back was mocking California's gun control laws.  In the last 20 years gun deaths in the state have dropped 56%.  I know that's a complicated figure and there's a lot in play with that.  But the idea that stricter gun laws didn't play any part is absolutely absurd. 

[Jason]

4 hours ago, GrittyVeterans said:

That is the tricky question. I would imagine a combination of doctors/government officials would be making the determination, but I'm not an expert on how this stuff works. If you have a mental illness, tough shit, you can't buy a gun. That could be seen as a violation of rights but oh well. Plenty of other hobbies to pick up in life

Yeah, I'm not down with that. The 5th is important too

[Jason]

Anti gun broad advocating for the murder of 5 million Americans. Pure class

[UndertheHalo]

hyperbole is a bitch eh.

[mtangelsfan]

So is irony