Since I don't live in California, is the "fire scioscia" out in full force in SoCal?

[rageous]

It would great fun to see the world's greatest manager try to win with this pitching staff.

 

And yes, we once had Weaver, Wilson, Greinke, Santana and Haren.  And they let 3 of the 5 walk.

Scioscia couldn't win with that pitching staff either.

[Marsaka]

Stradling:  The point was they make the same mistakes over and over again.  Yes major league players still need instruction, so if a player makes a mistake, they find a way to correct it.  Thats how you win games.  Thats what a manager is for isnt it?  Or is the entire coaching staff just getting paid to do nothing?  What a waste of money...

[Marsaka]

I'm ready for a change but if we do it now it will mean the end of the season. This team has been awful early on this season but in seasons past they have been bad and turned it around. We need to hope for a turn around.

 

Season is already over, and unless you think Scioscia will all of a sudden become a good manager, there is no reason to keep him around.

[tdawg87]

Mike is a good manager. I think his....mantra....so to speak, has worked wonders for this team over the years. Like it or not, he is by far the best manager this team has ever had. Maybe he doesn't flip his shit like Gene Mauch but that's part of what makes him a great coach. I know a lot of you guys talk about emotion and passion and all that, but Mike had almost a decade of success (including a WS) with his same "passive" demeanor. In fact, the 00's were the best years in team history. 2009 had literally 0 players that were on the WS team, yet he still managed to lead them to one of their best years in history. That was despite a tragedy.

All that said, I feel it is time for a change. What worked for teams in the past clearly isn't working now. The players have changed, the league has changed, hell the entire organizational philosophy has changed. Through all this "change" you can't keep the same guy at the helm. Maybe some guys can keep up (didn't Bobby Cox manage the Braves for 30 years?) but I think that's more the exception than the rule. At some point you have to move in a different direction.

A lot of this falls on those above Scioscia. Dipoto has made some iffy signings and trades, and Moreno has agreed to sign the checks. Then you have the players themselves. Some are just plain not very good, while others are massively underperforming. Many things are out of Mike's control, and the physical aspect of the game is one of them. However, there is also a mental side to the game, something which Scioscia has a significant hand in. He isn't out there on the mound blowing leads, or in the field dropping pop flys, or in the batters box swinging at garbage. But his philosophy is. If Mike truly is a team leader, then the players will listen to what he has to say and remember it. If they are, and the players are faulting, then he should at least take some of the blame. If they aren't, then what the hell good is he?

This team has talent. Maybe not a lot, but it is there. Pujols, Hamilton, Trout, Trumbo, Aybar, Weaver, Wilson, Frieri. All have been great to phenominal in the past. The point is that there is more than enough talent on this team (injuries or not) to offset the less-talented players. Why then are we 10 and f'ing 18? Something has to change. You can't fire the owner. You can't fire the players. It starts with the coaching.

[red321]

Season is already over, and unless you think Scioscia will all of a sudden become a good manager, there is no reason to keep him around.

 

Who do you suggest replaces him?

 

please note, the answer anyone is dumb

[mulwin444]

Personally, I feel the root of the problems can be laid at the feet of DiPoto rather then Scioscia:

 

1)  Traded Santana for nothing

2)  Opted out of Haren

3)  Traded decent SP prospects and solid MIF depth for Greinke and didn't re-sign him

4)  Because of #1, #2, and #3 traded offensive depth in Morales for a 5 starter in Vargas and AAA filler in Blanton

5)  Signed Josh Hamilton to a contract that basically rewards him for what he did with the Rangers and not what he'll do with the Angels

6)  Signed Ryan Madson and crossed his fingers hoping he be okay

 

Essentially, if just opt in for one more year of Haren and Santana, your rotation is Weaver, Wilson, Santana, Haren, and RIchards.  If those two suck in 2013, they are gone.

 

As for the offense, if they kept things as is: C: Ianetta/Conger, 1B/DH: Pujols, 2B Kendrick, SS Aybar, 3B Callaspo, LF Trout, CF Bourjos. RF Trumbo DH/1B, Morales

 

You can't blame anyone really for the injuries, they happen to every team, but the depth is lacking which, again, falls on DiPoto.  I'm not a huge Sciocscia fan but, apart from some questionable BP moves, I don't see how this falls on him. 

[Stradling]

Stradling: The point was they make the same mistakes over and over again. Yes major league players still need instruction, so if a player makes a mistake, they find a way to correct it. Thats how you win games. Thats what a manager is for isnt it? Or is the entire coaching staff just getting paid to do nothing? What a waste of money...

And my point is Scioscia isn't to blame for physical errors the team makes. Let's say he benches players for making physical mistakes with the depth this tam has we would be seeing Shuck and players like him playing every position. Errors are part of the game as are slumps without depth or with themassive amount of injuries this team has had you have to let them play through it.

[HaloSkinsFan]

I think Scioscia is an excellent manager and that he should be fired.  This happens to a lot great coaches, sometimes you just need to bring in fresh blood.  Somebody that will deliver a new message. The number of mental errors being made by this team bother me the most. 

[bdavis621]

When does the college season end so we can bring in Erstad?

[mulwin444]

When does the college season end so we can bring in Erstad?

 Yes, we definitely need a new punter on this team...

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

Angelsapologists.com taken?

[tomsred]

Personally, I feel the root of the problems can be laid at the feet of DiPoto rather then Scioscia:

 

1)  Traded Santana for nothing

2)  Opted out of Haren

3)  Traded decent SP prospects and solid MIF depth for Greinke and didn't re-sign him

4)  Because of #1, #2, and #3 traded offensive depth in Morales for a 5 starter in Vargas and AAA filler in Blanton

5)  Signed Josh Hamilton to a contract that basically rewards him for what he did with the Rangers and not what he'll do with the Angels

6)  Signed Ryan Madson and crossed his fingers hoping he be okay

 

Essentially, if just opt in for one more year of Haren and Santana, your rotation is Weaver, Wilson, Santana, Haren, and RIchards.  If those two suck in 2013, they are gone.

 

As for the offense, if they kept things as is: C: Ianetta/Conger, 1B/DH: Pujols, 2B Kendrick, SS Aybar, 3B Callaspo, LF Trout, CF Bourjos. RF Trumbo DH/1B, Morales

 

You can't blame anyone really for the injuries, they happen to every team, but the depth is lacking which, again, falls on DiPoto.  I'm not a huge Sciocscia fan but, apart from some questionable BP moves, I don't see how this falls on him. 

I'm with you on this Mulwin.  I can see some logic in replacing Scioscia because it is the easy answer to appease frustration among the fans, and others in the organization.  Sometimes making a change, any change can kind of shock a team out of a poor path they may be on.   Things are complicated here by the fact that a really good replacement for Scioscia is not obvious.  However, that issue aside, something else is definitely wrong with the philosophy or conduct of operations in the front office.  Maybe the overall strategy is very poor, maybe DiPoto is too inexperienced, maybe roles and responsibilities haven't been clearly defined.  It's hard to pinpoint the problem because unless you are an insider there is little hope of understanding how the Angels really conduct their business, and how effectively relationships work.

[John Shay]

Erstad will not be brought in to coach this team. A manager with experience is needed for this roster. Ozzie Guillen anybody? Go ahead and shoot me, but a little fire would do this team GREAT!! He still owns a .513 career win % even with that debacle in Miami last year. For all you Scioscia apoligists, Ozzie has as many WS Titles.

[Chuck]

Give me a break.  We've sucked for the past 3 years and that includes a pitching staff of Weaver Grienke Haren Santana and Wilson.

 

Blaming dipoto for bringing in Pujols and Hamilton Frieri etc is lame.

 

I agree. The only knock you could put on Dipoto is signing Blanton over a Lohse and not putting together a good BP last season. Outside of those two things, I've been very impressed with him.

 

Regarding last year's bullpen, I think Dipoto believed Downs, Walden and two veteran guys like Hawkins and Izzy would be good enough. Same thing this year, though he tried to put together a solid BP for cheap getting Madson, Burnett to go along with Downs, Frieri and what we all witnessed in a rejuvenated Kevin Jepsen. Can't fault him too much on both of these, but I can see how the blame can partly go in his direction. 

 

But seriously, landing top free agents and a blockbuster deal to get Grienke for the playoff push. Solid! Everyone was singing his praises for most of these moves.

[Brandon Wing]

I'm with you on this Mulwin.  I can see some logic in replacing Scioscia because it is the easy answer to appease frustration among the fans, and others in the organization.  Sometimes making a change, any change can kind of shock a team out of a poor path they may be on.   Things are complicated here by the fact that a really good replacement for Scioscia is not obvious.  However, that issue aside, something else is definitely wrong with the philosophy or conduct of operations in the front office.  Maybe the overall strategy is very poor, maybe DiPoto is too inexperienced, maybe roles and responsibilities haven't been clearly defined.  It's hard to pinpoint the problem because unless you are an insider there is little hope of understanding how the Angels really conduct their business, and how effectively relationships work.

This is the best explanation I have read in a while. With that said, it is painfully obvious that there are a series of issues plaguing this franchise right now, and in no way should any aspect of the organization be immune from criticism.  Not the owner, not management, not the scouting, and not Scioscia. To absolve any of them of blame is misguided.

[Mark68]

Personally, I feel the root of the problems can be laid at the feet of DiPoto rather then Scioscia:

 

1)  Traded Santana for nothing

2)  Opted out of Haren

3)  Traded decent SP prospects and solid MIF depth for Greinke and didn't re-sign him

4)  Because of #1, #2, and #3 traded offensive depth in Morales for a 5 starter in Vargas and AAA filler in Blanton

5)  Signed Josh Hamilton to a contract that basically rewards him for what he did with the Rangers and not what he'll do with the Angels

6)  Signed Ryan Madson and crossed his fingers hoping he be okay

 

Essentially, if just opt in for one more year of Haren and Santana, your rotation is Weaver, Wilson, Santana, Haren, and RIchards.  If those two suck in 2013, they are gone.

 

As for the offense, if they kept things as is: C: Ianetta/Conger, 1B/DH: Pujols, 2B Kendrick, SS Aybar, 3B Callaspo, LF Trout, CF Bourjos. RF Trumbo DH/1B, Morales

 

You can't blame anyone really for the injuries, they happen to every team, but the depth is lacking which, again, falls on DiPoto.  I'm not a huge Sciocscia fan but, apart from some questionable BP moves, I don't see how this falls on him. 

1. Santana was not going to be here this year, anyway. None of US wanted him here, and his act got old with the front office as well. So, he was gone, we at least got SOMEONE for him, unfortunately, that someone is on the 60-day DL.

2. Yep. And until last night, Haren has looked like shit.

3. A gamble. We certainly tried to re-sign him, but he went to the highest bidder, who also happens to be an NL team, which he had a preference for.

4. This trade is a win. It doesn't look like it now, but wait until the end of the season. Vargas may be the only pitcher on this team with 200+ innings, and his ERA will be under 4. Morales was gonna be gone after this year anyway.

5. This is how free agent contracts work. Free agents get paid for their past performance. Not sure if this was all Dipoto anyway.

6. Signing Ryan Madson for the amount he was signed was good value, and I'm sure it was assumed he would be on the DL to start the season.

[red321]

I agree. The only knock you could put on Dipoto is signing Blanton over a Lohse and not putting together a good BP last season. Outside of those two things, I've been very impressed with him.

 

Regarding last year's bullpen, I think Dipoto believed Downs, Walden and two veteran guys like Hawkins and Izzy would be good enough. Same thing this year, though he tried to put together a solid BP for cheap getting Madson, Burnett to go along with Downs, Frieri and what we all witnessed in a rejuvenated Kevin Jepsen. Can't fault him too much on both of these, but I can see how the blame can partly go in his direction. 

 

But seriously, landing top free agents and a blockbuster deal to get Grienke for the playoff push. Solid! Everyone was singing his praises for most of these moves.

 

I can remember certain people singing praises about the Wells deal to.

[AZMike]

I can remember certain people singing praises about the Wells deal to.

Blue Jays fans

[Troll Daddy]

I just wish that Dipoto would of kept Torii Hunter one more season ... and one of Haren or Santana. Then maybe Hamilton and Blantana wouldn't be Angels.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

The problem with Scioscia is Arte giving him the ten year contract. 10 years is a long time and the dynamics of an organization change over time.. 

 

This is true for players as well. Ten years is a hell of a long time to project anything. I wouldn't give anyone - player, manager or coach - more than a four-year contract, five at the outside. Approaches get stale, production takes a nosedive, injuries occur. Situations can turn completely around a lot sooner than ten years, and all long contracts do is prolong the regret.

[tennischmp]

Erstad will not be brought in to coach this team. A manager with experience is needed for this roster. Ozzie Guillen anybody? Go ahead and shoot me, but a little fire would do this team GREAT!! He still owns a .513 career win % even with that debacle in Miami last year. For all you Scioscia apoligists, Ozzie has as many WS Titles.

I'd take Ozzie anyday on this team

[YouthofToday]

No thank you to the pinko loving communist named Ozzie Guillen.

[Docwaukee]

Personally, I feel the root of the problems can be laid at the feet of DiPoto rather then Scioscia:

 

1)  Traded Santana for nothing

2)  Opted out of Haren

3)  Traded decent SP prospects and solid MIF depth for Greinke and didn't re-sign him

4)  Because of #1, #2, and #3 traded offensive depth in Morales for a 5 starter in Vargas and AAA filler in Blanton

5)  Signed Josh Hamilton to a contract that basically rewards him for what he did with the Rangers and not what he'll do with the Angels

6)  Signed Ryan Madson and crossed his fingers hoping he be okay

 

Essentially, if just opt in for one more year of Haren and Santana, your rotation is Weaver, Wilson, Santana, Haren, and RIchards.  If those two suck in 2013, they are gone.

 

As for the offense, if they kept things as is: C: Ianetta/Conger, 1B/DH: Pujols, 2B Kendrick, SS Aybar, 3B Callaspo, LF Trout, CF Bourjos. RF Trumbo DH/1B, Morales

 

You can't blame anyone really for the injuries, they happen to every team, but the depth is lacking which, again, falls on DiPoto.  I'm not a huge Sciocscia fan but, apart from some questionable BP moves, I don't see how this falls on him. 

my nit about jd thus far are the grienke trade and the blanton signing yet moreso I tend to disagree with the lack of importance he's placed on constructing a good pen. yes he got us frieri and burnett, but leaving everything else as is has been a moderate disaster. It's the cheapest thing to fix yet it's been an issue from his first day.

Santana was one of the worst if not the worst SP in baseball last year. Haren wasnt very good, hasn't been this year and likely won't be. Those two combined were 26mil. Ive got no problem with how he handled that

The two pitchers given up for grienke make have given us additional flexibility to get another starter instead of blanton, or perhpas a pen arm worthy of frieri quality. Giving up segura is a total bummer. Getting Grienke wasn't just a 2012 move though. My guess is that he thought by bringing him in early that the team would have a better chance to sign him. A stretch that didn't work and a very risky one at that.

I still have a hard time placing the lion's share of blame him as the guys he's brought in haven't performed to the level expected and he had to essentially be perfect with his moves in order to replace and or rebuild and entire pitching staff in one offseason. Not every move is going to be perfect yet he had no room for error.

[AZMike]

my nit about jd thus far are the grienke trade and the blanton signing yet moreso I tend to disagree with the lack of importance he's placed on constructing a good pen. yes he got us frieri and burnett, but leaving everything else as is has been a moderate disaster. It's the cheapest thing to fix yet it's been an issue from his first day.

 

It's not necessarily the cheapest thing to fix. I do think JD should've allotted more money to the bullpen but he is right about free agent relief pitchers being a crapshoot at best. Imagine if the Angels had signed Ryan Madson in 2012 -- a proven closer. we would've burned $10M to have him not pitch for us instead of just being out $3.5M to have him not pitch for us this year. Same story with Heath Bell and several other "top tier" relievers in 2012.

[Docwaukee]

It's not necessarily the cheapest thing to fix. I do think JD should've allotted more money to the bullpen but he is right about free agent relief pitchers being a crapshoot at best. Imagine if the Angels had signed Ryan Madson in 2012 -- a proven closer. we would've burned $10M to have him not pitch for us instead of just being out $3.5M to have him not pitch for us this year. Same story with Heath Bell and several other "top tier" relievers in 2012.

I also meant cheap in terms of cost of players in return. Another Frieri type would do wonders for this club.