Is Dipoto to blame?

[Lou]

Or Gene Autry

[Inside Pitch]

Cuz they didn't want to be held accountable for their suckage?

 

Funny, seems the players tried to hold him accountable on that fateful day and he chose to never come back.   

[Angel Oracle]

Be very leery of owners piggy backing on to a franchise already mostly built for success, as the Halos were when Moreno purchased the team.

Outside of the one burst of FA additions going into 2004 and Hunter in 2008, how many moves have been beneficial for the franchise since he purchased the team?

Especially since 2010?

[Inside Pitch]

Outside of the one burst of FA additions going into 2004 and Hunter in 2008, how many moves have been beneficial for the franchise since he purchased the team?

Especially since 2010?

 

You mean like allowing for the over the slot money to Adenhart, Trumbo, and others?  The Draft and Follow money he spent on a yearly basis?  The pursuit of Kendry's Morales?  Does stuff like expanding the TV schedule from 85-90 games to nearly all of them and buying a radio station that would better reach Angels fans count or are you sticking to just the on field stuff? -- I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just curious if those things count.    

 

Moreno isn't perfect but people are really going out of their way to disparage a guy that's done more good than bad overall.  IMO the problem with Moreno has been that there hasn't been a GM willing to tell him no, or remind him of what he himself said -- that he was there to pay the bills and let the baseball people run things.   The lack of backbone in the GM office post Bill Stoneman has been this team's most glaring weakness.  This is why I think the people arguing the Angels need more than just a GM but a Theo like uber-boss capable of telling Arte to STFU are on point.

 

Someone like Klentak might be a great hire to be the actual GM -- but can he tell a self made Billionaire like Arte to go sit in his office and wait for his call?   Doubt it.

 

This team needs that.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[mtangelsfan]

But hasn't the choice of GM's sans backbone been Arte's way of doing things?  He's hired Reagins and Dipoto so he could boss them around.

[Inside Pitch]

But hasn't the choice of GM's sans backbone been Arte's way of doing things?  He's hired Reagins and Dipoto so he could boss them around.

 

Our best hope is that someone during the interview process tells him he needs to back the F up while at the same time impressing Arte.   I don't think Arte is a moron, I think he will listen to someone.  But I don't think he is likely to be easily swayed.  Thus I feel the need for that uber-boss like Theo.

 

There has to be a Gene Michaels type out there willing to tell Arte he needs to listen more...   

[Angel Oracle]

IP's point is right on.

I agree that Moreno has enhanced the franchise's value significantly through the TV deal and other off-field things.

But a scary point in this franchise's history is coming, as that good is being undone by his player moves meddling, hiring lackeys for GMs, and having a low scouting/development budget.

The total body of work by Moreno will be remembered ultimately, and not just the first 6 seasons of success from 2004-2009.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[Blarg]

But hasn't the choice of GM's sans backbone been Arte's way of doing things?  He's hired Reagins and Dipoto so he could boss them around.

 

Arte extended Stoneman's contract as far as Bill would accept, otherwise Reagins never would have been promoted.

 

Lost in that argument is Reagins was promoted from within from the position of Director of Player Development, which logically you may want to do since that person has all of the information on everyone in the minors, what their value is, whether to keep or trade.

 

Reagins failings were more to do with not having the clout of seniority that Stoneman had which could dissuade Moreno from making poor choices. I don't think Arte intended to boss Tony around but when it came to impulse buying I don't think he was given enough respect when he offered a different option.

 

Reagins made some pretty good decisions when left to do his job. Some of the acquisitions and trades had meddling written all over them. In the end I think he would have been a pretty good GM if given the same authority that most have in the industry.

[Inside Pitch]

It really does come down to whoever being in charge being willing to tell Arte to slow his roll...

[laagamer]

This is pretty much the only thing I disagree with your post. His signing would cost our #1 draft pick and I do not think that be worth 3-4 years for 20-35+ million. Rather have the draft pick.

Maybe he'd come back for dirt cheap. Wouldn't that be ****in' nice.

With our luck Howie'd hit regression next year anyways.

[Angel Oracle]

No way would I give up a 1st round draft pick to bring HK back, he's 33 in 2016 and not worth losing a potentially rock solid prospect.

Need to move in a different direction at 2B long term, whether that's Sherman Johnson, Andrew Daniel, or trading for a Dee Gordon. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[laagamer]

No way would I give up a 1st round draft pick to bring HK back, he's 33 in 2016 and not worth losing a potentially rock solid prospect.

Need to move in a different direction at 2B long term, whether that's Sherman Johnson, Andrew Daniel, or trading for a Dee Gordon.

Well what options do we have a 2B in farm?

Winning next year requires at least one bat above .280

He'd help. We'd have been better of this year with him. We need pitching man. A top draft pick of a SP wouldn't help us immediately. I think we should sign to compete next year. We've got pieces man.

Maybe it's just that great smile that makes me want him back.

[Angel Oracle]

A true ace like Price or Cueto would be a big help, and not cost a 1st round pick.

 

I'm still bullish on having a true leadoff man who causes havoc on the bases and unnerves pitchers.

Dee Gordon isn't the world's most patient hitter.   But he does fit the "create havoc" criteria, and has hit for a rock solid BA the past 2 seasons. 

And he would fill the 2B hole.

[Stradling]

So AO if they were to Trade for Gordon you'd want to keep Scioscia since he would utilize Gordon's speed with his aggressive base running.

[laagamer]

A true ace like Price or Cueto would be a big help, and not cost a 1st round pick.

I'm still bullish on having a true leadoff man who causes havoc on the bases and unnerves pitchers.

Dee Gordon isn't the world's most patient hitter. But he does fit the "create havoc" criteria, and has hit for a rock solid BA the past 2 seasons.

And he would fill the 2B hole.

I'd love a Figgins type but should we really bring in a 30+ yr old SP for top line money? Edited September 1, 2015 by laagamer

[Angel Oracle]

I'm willing to bring in Price or Cueto for 6 years tops at about $28 million/season.

Admittedly, someone might give them a light it up offer, say 8-9 years/$30 million/season given how hard it is to find true aces.   

At that point, I would step away and say good luck, and hope Richards and Newcomb become that for the Halos in time. 

 

As for Gordon, not many managers would likely put the breaks on him.

 

The real no brainer is signing Cespedes, and getting clutch hitting onto a team sorely lacking in it.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[Ohtaniland]

Arte extended Stoneman's contract as far as Bill would accept, otherwise Reagins never would have been promoted.

Lost in that argument is Reagins was promoted from within from the position of Director of Player Development, which logically you may want to do since that person has all of the information on everyone in the minors, what their value is, whether to keep or trade.

Reagins failings were more to do with not having the clout of seniority that Stoneman had which could dissuade Moreno from making poor choices. I don't think Arte intended to boss Tony around but when it came to impulse buying I don't think he was given enough respect when he offered a different option.

Reagins made some pretty good decisions when left to do his job. Some of the acquisitions and trades had meddling written all over them. In the end I think he would have been a pretty good GM if given the same authority that most have in the industry.

This is the best way I've seen anyone describe the Reagins era. Reagins was not without fault but he had $60M coming off the books after 2011 just before he was let go. They biggest contract left on the books was Vernon Wells which was in place at $24.6M at the behest of Arte. Take away Vernon Wells and the available payroll left to spend going into 2012 would've been close to $85M. Why Reagins gets thrown under the bus is Scioscia and Arte's doing. Arte wanted a big bat and Scioscia want Napoli out. Reagins was just told to get it done or get fired, When it failed, they blamed Reagins.

Dipoto's teams didn't fare any better. He was very lucky Mike Trout came along or we could've seen mostly 4th place teams under Dipoto's watch.

[Inside Pitch]

A true ace like Price or Cueto would be a big help, and not cost a 1st round pick.

 

I'm not big on Cueto -- NL guy, not sure that 240 inning season a couple years ago didn't shorten his shelf life....    He's been giving up a lot more hits as a AL pitcher, which really isn't a surprise.   I just don't think he will live up to his contract if he stays in the AL

 

All that being said, I haven't watched him pitch enough to argue my position with any real sense of conviction ala my Garza hate of a couple years ago.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Lou]

Be very leery of owners piggy backing on to a franchise already mostly built for success, as the Halos were when Moreno purchased the team.

Outside of the one burst of FA additions going into 2004 and Hunter in 2008, how many moves have been beneficial for the franchise since he purchased the team?

Especially since 2010?

An organization built for success? We had 2002 and that's it. We followed that up with 77 wins in 2003. Prior to winning the WS, we lost 87 games and finished 41 games out. We hadn't won more than 85 games since 1989.

That doesn't scream built for success to me.

[Lou]

This is the best way I've seen anyone describe the Reagins era. Reagins was not without fault but he had $60M coming off the books after 2011 just before he was let go. They biggest contract left on the books was Vernon Wells which was in place at $24.6M at the behest of Arte. Take away Vernon Wells and the available payroll left to spend going into 2012 would've been close to $85M. Why Reagins gets thrown under the bus is Scioscia and Arte's doing. Arte wanted a big bat and Scioscia want Napoli out. Reagins was just told to get it done or get fired, When it failed, they blamed Reagins.

Dipoto's teams didn't fare any better. He was very lucky Mike Trout came along or we could've seen mostly 4th place teams under Dipoto's watch.

Where are you getting your info? In particular, "...he was told to get it done or get fired"

[Hollyw00d]

I'm not big on Cueto -- NL guy, not sure that 240 inning season a couple years ago didn't shorten his shelf life.... He's been giving up a lot more hits as a AL pitcher, which really isn't a surprise. I just don't think he will live up to his contract if he stays in the AL

All that being said, I haven't watched him pitch enough to argue my position with any real sense of conviction ala my Garza hate of a couple years ago.

You know who the cubbies gave up in that Garza trade?

Chris archer. Ouch.

[Angel Oracle]

Lou, it was mostly built for success by 2004 because of the players already in the org and on the team.

The 2004 FA crop was pretty much the thing that put them over the hump and into the post-season on a regular basis through 2009.

Which gets me back to wishing the 2003-2009 Arte would return, the one that didn't tell his GM which players to sign as FAs or to acquire via trade.

 

IP, I did talk a little in another thread about Cueto's inexperience vs AL teams, and how he was roughed up a couple of times very recently.

Price is also the more durable of the two star pitchers, complete with a delivery that doesn't scream out "surgery incoming". 

Price has racked up the innings over the past several seasons though.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Angel Oracle

[Lou]

Those players led us to 77 wins in 2003. Arte was responsible for signing that 2004 FA crop that put us over the top.

Also, we have no idea if and when Arte has directed the GM as to which players to sign or acquire via trade. For all we know, he directed Stoneman to acquire those players for the 2004 season. We came out of nowhere to sign Vladdy. You don't think Arte had anything to do with that? After all, we all "know" that Stoneman doesn't make any deals.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Lou

[Blarg]

The narrative is Vlad fell into Stoneman's lap.

[Angel Oracle]

Vlad came off of back surgery after missing the last 2 months of the 2003 season for the Expos.

That supposedly scared some teams away, and allowed the Halos to sign him for 5 years/$70 million, very good money for back then but still short of what a healthy Vlad would have gotten.