Is Dipoto to blame?

[Tyler]

You took the first swing and now it's personal? Cute

 

OregonLAA, on 30 Aug 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

 

I'm a Dipoto fan but the offense has been horrid and that's on him. Though I think he would have done more than Victorino/Dejesus at the deadline.

Shane likes to shit all over him but Shane wanted to trade Trumbo for pitching and we got Skaggs AND Santiago for him. Also Shane wouldn't shut up about Cishek for a year and he blows.

 

____

 

Your first post in this thread. 

[Troll Daddy]

Having said that, we had one of the top offenses in baseball last year and took away Kendrick. Just Kendrick. And now we are the worst offense in baseball? Something doesn't add up. That's on the coaches

That's bullshit ... we had the same coaches last season.

Kendrick, Hamilton, and Conger gone. Freese has had a extended DL and Joyce and Iannetta have been terrible.

The offense struggled in the playoffs ... yet Dipoto does nothing in the off season.

[tomsred]

That's bullshit ... we had the same coaches last season.

Kendrick, Hamilton, and Conger gone. Freese has had a extended DL and Joyce and Iannetta have been terrible.

The offense struggled in the playoffs ... yet Dipoto does nothing in the off season.

 

Very true, Dipoto did nothing to strengthen the offense, and he didn't do anything to incorporate team speed into that offense.  All of the players you mentioned were of his doing.  When he had a chance to pick up Revere for Gott, he didn't do that either, and that would have added some team speed.  I think he was so ruthless  and determined to add pitching depth and protect it, he went over board.  He strengthened the bullpen last year, but didn't really do anything to insure its stability this year beyond resigning the closer.  He relied too heavily on young farm hands to strengthen it, who were not, or are not, ready yet.  All this was a gamble, and it didn't work.

[tennischmp]

I think you are right on the mark Shane.  The fact that he quit and walked away at the worst possible time rankles me the most; great timing for him, very poor timing for the team.  You can't expect someone like Stoneman to come in at that point and do anything significant, he's just trying to keep the club from doing anything rash prior to finding a permanent replacement.  Jerry didn't give Scioscia a team that was suitable to Scioscia's strengths as a manager, i.e. this club was given a stationary offense.  Now we are probably forced to make wholesale changes in the coaching staff, manager, and who knows elsewhere in the front office system.  These kind of changes will likely set us back for more years then they should have under an organized change over at the GM position.  He was better than Reagins, but worse than Stoneman's first tenure as GM.  The original Stoneman had the better instincts, inter personal skills, and stability that Jerry lacks.  Jerry has the tactical skills for the saber metric baseball world (there are many in the baseball world these days who have those kind of skills), but falls short after that.

 

One other thing is that I can't completely blame Arte for this mess (although he made a number of apparent mistakes), when a GM tries to force certain changes on an owner by giving him an ultimatum (do as I want, or I'm gone), I wouldn't necessarily back him either.  It's a collaborative effort, you have to lead people by convincing them your ideas are sound, and will work.        

I honestly don't think you know how a hierarchy of a front office on a successful baseball team is supposed to work.

[FabulousFabregas]

I think if Dipoto was still GM he would have gotten Cespedes.  It might not have made this team great, but they'd probably have a wild card spot right now with him on the team.

[Stradling]

I think if Dipoto was still GM he would have gotten Cespedes. It might not have made this team great, but they'd probably have a wild card spot right now with him on the team.

Well that will become AW fact. Let me know how you'd feel about losing Newcombe for the 2nd Wild Card spot.

[Inside Pitch]

He created this roster.  Is this performance on him or is this catastrophic collapse something that might not have happened if he were still around to further shape the team?

 

Is his ability to get a job this offseason hampered by what has happened to the halos?  ie, will he be held accountable.  

 

My view is that he jumped ship at the perfect time to save himself.  If he were at the helm of this fairly epic disaster, he'd be way worse off.  

 

Thoughts? 

 

Teflon doesn't get any blame when things go bad, he only gets the credit when things go right. -- Dipotians 3:16.

[Blarg]

I believe the team for the most part has given up on scioscia and the season. I dont think its a coincidence that this team has gone into a nosedive since the dipoto incident.

I firmly believe this team wouldn't be so lifeless and directionless if dipoto were still around.

Except the team went on a winning streak after the Dipoto incident.

[Stradling]

Yep and the players have a financial stake in playing well. I'm sure Iannetta has given up because of Scioscia, despite the fact that he just lost millions of dollars, same with Joyce. Giavotella gave up because he didn't want to ever be an everyday player. Richards doesn't want to be a dominating pitcher if it means he has to pitch for Sosh. Salas and Cam both have zero desire to pitch well either.

[Guest]

Well that will become AW fact. Let me know how you'd feel about losing Newcombe for the 2nd Wild Card spot.

Stoneman did the right thing-- next to nothing. The only time it makes sense to do a trade deadline deal for a rental player (i.e. one who does not have at least one full year of club control remaining) is when you are almost certain to win the division. You pay a premium to get players that time of year and if there's a strong chance you miss the playoffs or land in a ridiculous coin flip wild card game then that's an unreasonable risk. 

[Hollyw00d]

Except the team went on a winning streak after the Dipoto incident.

Overall, they've played worse since his departure. At least before they could beat bad teams, now they are one of the worst teams in baseball the past month and there's not much reason to believe it will improve

[YouthofToday]

I honestly don't think you know how a hierarchy of a front office on a successful baseball team is supposed to work.

This.

Dipoto was an improvement over Reagins. That said, it's not like he demonstrated he was a top 10 GM or anything. Blanton was all him (I favored the move at the time, ugh).

Dipoto was quite green and made many mistakes that were growing pains in his professional development. If he gets a GM gig again (very likely) that organization will benefit immensely from Jerry's time with the Angels.

[Guest]

This.

Dipoto was an improvement over Reagins. That said, it's not like he demonstrated he was a top 10 GM or anything. Blanton was all him (I favored the move at the time, ugh).

Dipoto was quite green and made many mistakes that were growing pains in his professional development. If he gets a GM gig again (very likely) that organization will benefit immensely from Jerry's time with the Angels.

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

Yea Shane, someone on here showed a stat that we were in the top three in defensive efficiency, rated better than Houston, and we had 250 or so shifts, and the Astros had over 1200 shifts. When you look at our team we don't have great defensive players, but the shifts worked wonders. This is where analytics and Scioscia combined to be better than going strictly off of analytics.

 

That's more of a condemnation of Dipoto than a validation isn't it?   If it's true he wanted more shifts, and the team was already outperforming the team leading MLB in shifts -- what was the point of the hissy fit?  

 

Everyone talks up his saber inclinations, but looking a little deeper at the things he said and the thought processes behind them you can see why what Doc is saying has merit.   Dipoto talked up acquiring batters that control the count and hit for power -- that's station to station baseball kiddies, aka -- old player skills..   Not a bad combination but one that when it goes in the tank -- tanks hard.  He also talked up the need to have players within a certain age range to try to maximize their effective performances..  Hard to argue with that -- it's a sound premise.  

 

As a stats guy Jerry knows what happens to old player skills.... as a stats guy, he knows when those players on the fringes of the the preferred age range are entering their tank phase..   He gambled the current group of hitters had one more season left in them....  based on recent performances it was a good bet...  This is not at all a criticism of him, it was an educated guess.  Unfortunately they tanked a year ahead of where anyone would have expected...  it happens.  He saw what was happening, the slump wasn't a slump, it was a decline...  He got out before the stink stuck to him but not before setting a few fires to make others look like the bad guys.   Smart move by a smart guy.

 

This station to station team is Dipoto's creation and the antithesis of what the Angels were famous for and successful doing.  KC is grabbing headlines left and right for running the bases, forcing other teams to make plays -- their offense was predicted to be mediocre and has massively surpassed expectations just like those old scrappy MS teams of yesteryear...  But yeah -- Mike Scioscia is a dinosaur and Jerry Dipoto and his new age ideas are the heat...  Nobody wants to blame the guy that tried to build a three run HR team in a pitchers park...  because, Teflon...

 

The answer is simple -- fire Mike Scioscia and sign more HR hitters.  It's what people always wanted back in the day...

 

 

[Guest]

That's more of a condemnation of Dipoto than a validation isn't it?   If it's true he wanted more shifts, and the team was already outperforming the team leading MLB in shifts -- what was the point of the hissy fit?  

 

Everyone talks up his saber inclinations, but looking a little deeper at the things he said and the thought processes behind them you can see why what Doc is saying has merit.   Dipoto talked up acquiring batters that control the count and hit for power -- that's station to station baseball kiddies, aka -- old player skills..   Not a bad combination but one that when it goes in the tank -- tanks hard.  He also talked up the need to have players within a certain age range to try to maximize their effective performances..  Hard to argue with that -- it's a sound premise.  

 

As a stats guy Jerry knows what happens to old player skills.... as a stats guy, he knows when those players on the fringes of the the preferred age range are entering their tank phase..   He gambled the current group of hitters had one more season left in them....  based on recent performances it was a good bet...  This is not at all a criticism of him, it was an educated guess.  Unfortunately they tanked a year ahead of where anyone would have expected...  it happens.  He saw what was happening, the slump wasn't a slump, it was a decline...  He got out before the stink stuck to him but not before setting a few fires to make others look like the bad guys.   Smart move by a smart guy.

 

This station to station team is Dipoto's creation and the antithesis of what the Angels were famous for and successful doing.  KC is grabbing headlines left and right for running the bases, forcing other teams to make plays -- their offense was predicted to be mediocre and has massively surpassed expectations just like those old scrappy MS teams of yesteryear...  But yeah -- Mike Scioscia is a dinosaur and Jerry Dipoto and his new age ideas are the heat...  Nobody wants to blame the guy that tried to build a three run HR team in a pitchers park...  because, Teflon...

 

The answer is simple -- fire Mike Scioscia and sign more HR hitters.  It's what people always wanted back in the day...

 

Under the current rules it's next to impossible for a team with a depleted farm with almost no pitching depth, plus limited payroll headroom to construct a team packed with young, athletic speedsters like the Astros or Royals. Only older players are available as free agents, and without a truckload of prospects it's not possible to bring in good young players via trade. 

 

Taking on hopeful bounceback players to complement the existing core of players was a reasonable risk given what the team had to work with. 

 

Part of the reason fans were so excited about Dipoto joining is that Moreno stated in a press conference that Dipoto would have total power -- presumably power that Reagins did not have. That proved to not be the case, and we ended up with a front office and coaching staff with an irreconcilable difference in philosophy. 

 

This is yet another reason why a ten year contract for a manager is not a good idea to have. Had Scioscia been here on a more standard deal, he might have been free to leave the team amicably and the team could have been built from scratch in 2011 with everyone on the same page. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by ScottLux

[Inside Pitch]

FTR - my previous post was intentionally hyperbolic -- but reality is that people have this really weird need to heap praise on JD for anything that went right while at the same time absolving him of any wrongdoing.   I don't get it.

 

When you stop and look at the entirety of his work, the man was completely lopsided in his actions.   There wasn't much balance to any of his work, there was a tendency to buy into his own theories to the point where he ignored risks..   Some will argue that's the sort of conviction that's necessary from a GM, and I think there is some truth to it, but the guy taking the risks shouldn't be absolved of all blame when those risks go belly up.

 

This team has gone from one extreme to the other...   Say what you will about the mess he inherited, but the position player core that was handed to him was younger and more athletic than the one he left for the next guy.  Trout, Calhoun, Cron, three guys on this team actually worth keeping were already in the system when he got here...     On the pitching end -- Weaver, Richards, Santana, were about the same ages as the core of next year pitching staff will be.   There have been improvements on the pitching end in the farm system -- but hardly enough to offset the completely barren position player situation.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Never thought of it like that, but thats a solid point. Our farm pitching is way better off today than yesterday. But is that worth it when weighed against our position player roster/depth?...

[BaseballMom]

There's quite enough blame to go around, doncha think?  There is no one person to blame for the way this season has gone.

 

Unless you want to blame the usher in 429.

[Ohtaniland]

There's quite enough blame to go around, doncha think?  There is no one person to blame for the way this season has gone.

 

Unless you want to blame the usher in 429.

 

That usher was good.....last season.

[Inside Pitch]

Under the current rules it's next to impossible for a team with a depleted farm with almost no pitching depth, plus limited payroll headroom to construct a team packed with young, athletic speedsters like the Astros or Royals. Only older players are available as free agents, and without a truckload of prospects it's not possible to bring in good young players via trade. 

 

Unfortunately this ignores that he had two such players under team control for many more years in Bourjos and Grichuk and he moved them for two years of Freese and a middle reliever of questionable merit.   It also ignores that he further depleted the farm system..   I don't really fault him for doing what he felt he needed to do in that area -- but's it's a reality.

 

Part of the reason fans were so excited about Dipoto joining is that Moreno stated in a press conference that Dipoto would have total power -- presumably power that Reagins did not have. That proved to not be the case, and we ended up with a front office and coaching staff with an irreconcilable difference in philosophy. 

 

I was excited because I welcomed statistical analysis and saw it as improvement.  The total power BS meant almost nothing to me.. I saw that as fluff, everyone knew that when George talked about giving a guy power to call the shots it went so far as calling the shots until he got a wild hair up his butt and then he was time for "The Boss"...   Seems naive to believe Moreno would be any different.  Its possible that might be the case with the next guy but the Angels had not hit bottom yet.

 

Scott, you're not devoid of logic -- in your estimation, knowing what you know about stats -- how wise was it to gravitate towards/build a station to station team in a pitchers park that suppresses HRs?  Be honest.

 

This is yet another reason why a ten year contract for a manager is not a good idea to have. Had Scioscia been here on a more standard deal, he might have been free to leave the team amicably and the team could have been built from scratch in 2011 with everyone on the same page. 

 

This is a perfect example of casting blame on the guy you dislike regardless of the track record.   People are free to hate MS all they want.  I don't have an issue with it -- the contact play makes me puke the way MS employed it.   But it's very very difficult to argue that his style of play and player was better suited for the park they played in than the station to station BS we currently have.   Ultimately I don't feel either guy is fully at blame so much as the clock finally rang 12 on several players and the combination of the two just wasn't going to work.   

Sooner or later it was going to come to a head, my only hope is that a lesson has been learned and won't be repeated.

[ten ocho recon scout]

That usher was good.....last season.

he was a fraud. No way he could have kept his ticket checking skills at such a high level two years in a row

[Vegas Halo Fan]

he was a fraud. No way he could have kept his ticket checking skills at such a high level two years in a row

 

I knew that as soon as he got that five-year deal his performance would go off the cliff. It was inevitable.

[Pujols4MVP]

Every MLB team should stop trading with the Cardinals....ur going to lose no matter what.

[VariousCrap]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I really believe the current state of this team is Arte's fault.  Arte forcing Jerry to sign Pujols and Hamilton hurt this team in many ways.  Signing those two guys limited a lot of things Jerry could do the last few years.  I think Jerry did the best he possibly could do given the limitations Arte put on him after those two signings.

 

I think we'd see a completely different team on the field if it wasn't for those two signings and the team would be much better.

[Pujols4MVP]

The Samueli's should buy the Angels from Arte Moreno.

 

They would let the GM run the team and stand out of the way.

and they'll hire the best people possible to run the team, expand the international scouting etc.

 

The Angels are like the Minnesota Wild....can't develop offense but they sure can spend like drunken sailors at a bar.

The Pujols, Hamilton & Wilson signings are like the Wild signing Parise, Suter & Vanek & they still don't have a offense.