August 1st, 2023 Trade Deadline: Does Ohtani get traded despite Arte's denials??

[Hubs]

1 hour ago, disarcina said:

do you let t he greatest player of all time leave without getting more than a draft pick compensation?   IMO, that's the. question but I can see it's not a very. popular topic here.

I just don't see how. you let the greatest player off all time without getting off value (more than a draft. pick) in return. The Angels could get a few top prospects and a MLB ready player who would  be under club control for five years as a few teams over-pay for a two month rental of. Ohtani and the chance to. convince him to sign as a F/A with that team.   I guess were I differ from the AW majority here - is I don't see any way that Ohtani extends his stay in Anaheim beyond this season.  Oh well. That's OK.

The fantasy that Ohtani being traded two months before Free Agency for “prospects” is just that … a fantasy. Arte will not let him be traded.

And how you would watch the last 2 plus weeks of games and say… you know what, they should trade the best player in the game for a bunch of nobodies and maybe we’ll be good enough to win again in two or three years??? So what that they’re winning and only a few games out… they need more prospects…

C’mon Tim. That is bizzaro world. You’re not gonna get someone like Ely De La Cruz or Corbin Carroll for Ohtani. No Jason Dominguez… no Jordan Walker. Look at the return teams have got for their superstars in the last five or six years. And Ohtani might be better than all of them. Would you take what the Nats got for Turner and Scherzer? (Though Turner came with another year of control) How about what the Red Sox got for Mookie? Rockies for Arendondo? Indians for Lindor? Dbacks for Goldschmidt? The Juan soto deal maybe worked out for the Nationals but he was at the top Of the game and parts of three seasons remaining on his deal.

None of those other trades have worked out for the team that trades the superstar. 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

7 hours ago, warped said:

Do you trade the greatest player of all time.

Boston did

[Angels 1961]

Only trade him if your 6 or more games out of W/C at deadline. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

18 hours ago, WicketMaiden said:

This is just fuckwittery. And very old fuckwittery, too.

I can't read this without craving fish and chips.

[Dtwncbad]

I think I will start a new thread speculating that if the Angels get to a ten game lead in the division, it would make sense to trade Ohtani as a pure salary dump.  Won’t need him and why not save the money?

[Jeff Fletcher]

@disarcina

I think you’re overvaluing what the Angels would get in return for Ohtani and undervaluing what it be worth to actually make the playoffs (in terms of the overall fan experience, the money the Angels make from it, and the amount that it would increase their chances of re-signing Ohtani). It would also send a terrible message to the players (including future players you might want to sign) if you trade Ohtani away while you’re in the race. 

You’re probably also undervaluing the draft pick they’d get for him. (Zach Neto and Ben Joyce were “just draft picks.”) Also there’s a bunch of extra draft pool money you get with that pick.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Jeff Fletcher

[Angels 1961]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

@disarcina

I think you’re overvaluing what the Angels would get in return for Ohtani and undervaluing what it be worth to actually make the playoffs (in terms of the overall fan experience, the money the Angels make from it, and the amount that it would increase their chances of re-signing Ohtani). It would also send a terrible message to the players (including future players you might want to sign) if you trade Ohtani away while you’re in the race. 

You’re probably also undervaluing the draft pick they’d get for him. (Zach Neto and Ben Joyce were “just draft picks.”) Also there’s a bunch of extra draft pool money you get with that pick.

They have a chance to win this year you keep Ohtani. I see Angels as active in adding players before deadline.

[floplag]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

@disarcina

I think you’re overvaluing what the Angels would get in return for Ohtani and undervaluing what it be worth to actually make the playoffs (in terms of the overall fan experience, the money the Angels make from it, and the amount that it would increase their chances of re-signing Ohtani). It would also send a terrible message to the players (including future players you might want to sign) if you trade Ohtani away while you’re in the race. 

You’re probably also undervaluing the draft pick they’d get for him. (Zach Neto and Ben Joyce were “just draft picks.”) Also there’s a bunch of extra draft pool money you get with that pick.

Honest question Jeff... Your right about all of that, at this point were never getting full value if you ever actually could, BUT... if he reaches FA, do you think there is an actual chance in Hades that Arte wins a bidding war with the Dodgers and Mets?  Regardless of where we finish the year?  Heck assume we win the WS... will Arte ever actually allow a 500M+ contract?

Furthermore, do we even want him to?  How does that affect us moving forward when even more money is tied up in one guy leaving us even less flexibility under the cap that Arte has yet to show he will ever break?

We all want him to stay, but its really not that simple is it.  The recent surge hasnt changed my view and i suspect the same people telling me im crazy will be the same ones complaining that we got nothing for him if/when that time comes. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

Honest question Jeff... Your right about all of that, at this point were never getting full value if you ever actually could, BUT... if he reaches FA, do you think there is an actual chance in Hades that Arte wins a bidding war with the Dodgers and Mets?  Regardless of where we finish the year?  Heck assume we win the WS... will Arte ever actually allow a 500M+ contract?

Furthermore, do we even want him to?  How does that affect us moving forward when even more money is tied up in one guy leaving us even less flexibility under the cap that Arte has yet to show he will ever break?

We all want him to stay, but its really not that simple is it.  The recent surge hasnt changed my view and i suspect the same people telling me im crazy will be the same ones complaining that we got nothing for him if/when that time comes. 

On your first point, yes I think the Angels could win a bidding war. He won bidding wars for Hamilton, Pujols and Rendon, and he’s going even more motivation to win this one. Plus, I don’t think Ohtani necessarily needs every dollar he can get. If Ohtani would rather play for the Angels than Dodgers, he’ll sign with the Angels, no matter what the Dodgers offer. 
 

As for your second question, it is very possible that whoever signs Ohtani ends up regretting it. That’s true of every premium free agent. 

[gurn67]

it would be interesting to see how often the Top 3 free agent signings each year in total dollars ended up working out. I'd be shocked if it was 50% of the time. I'm guessing about a 1/3 of the time, if that. Especially in the last 30 years, or so.

[Stradling]

Why would people question whether Arte would pay him the money?  Trout got his contract 4 years ago and even with inflation it’s the largest contract ever by $50 million.  

[Hubs]

10 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Why would people question whether Arte would pay him the money?  Trout got his contract 4 years ago and even with inflation it’s the largest contract ever by $50 million.  

Arte absolutely will bid. And reasonably there are seven or maybe 8 teams that will bid on him, and he will listen to offers. 

1) Angels. -- It's what he knows, he has friends on the team, and if they're winning, why upset the apple cart. West Coast.

2) Dodgers -- Legacy of success, a good young core and farm system and deep pockets. West Coast.

3) Giants -- in Need of a Franchise Super star. West Coast.

4) Mariners -- Good Young core, West coast. 

5) Padres -- Expensive but good team, underperforming, has major free agents to resign as well. West Coast.

6) Yankees -- Legacy of success, a good young core and farm system and deep pockets. East Coast so games will be on super early in Japan. Currently Angels games are on usually in the AM -- A 7 PM game is 11 AM in Tokyo. A 1 PM game is 5 AM, Whilst a 7 PM east coast game is 8 AM, and a 1 PM East Coast Game is on at 2 AM.

7) Mets -- Not winning with the highest payroll in the league, East Coast. Very Deep pockets - also Arte hates the owner of the Mets.

8 ) Red Sox? Maybe? -- Same issue with the rest of the east coast teams.

 

 

[Vlad27Trout27]

No, end of debate. 

[warped]

Do you trade, Michael Jordan,  babe Ruth 

[T.G.]

If Ohtani walks, I will view Arte Moreno as the owner who did what he could to keep him.  Even though I'm not the biggest Arte fan, I won't hold it against him if Ohtani walks. I don't see any possible way Arte trades him before the end of the season. The team has a legitimate shot at the post-season.  Whatever happens when this season is done will be on Ohtani.  He will have all the control and has earned that right.  I just want the Angels to make it an obvious decision for him to stay.  They've already done a lot to that end.  Now, they just need to win and let Arte take care of the rest.

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

Arte absolutely will bid. And reasonably there are seven or maybe 8 teams that will bid on him, and he will listen to offers. 

1) Angels. -- It's what he knows, he has friends on the team, and if they're winning, why upset the apple cart. West Coast.

2) Dodgers -- Legacy of success, a good young core and farm system and deep pockets. West Coast.

3) Giants -- in Need of a Franchise Super star. West Coast.

4) Mariners -- Good Young core, West coast. 

5) Padres -- Expensive but good team, underperforming, has major free agents to resign as well. West Coast.

6) Yankees -- Legacy of success, a good young core and farm system and deep pockets. East Coast so games will be on super early in Japan. Currently Angels games are on usually in the AM -- A 7 PM game is 11 AM in Tokyo. A 1 PM game is 5 AM, Whilst a 7 PM east coast game is 8 AM, and a 1 PM East Coast Game is on at 2 AM.

7) Mets -- Not winning with the highest payroll in the league, East Coast. Very Deep pockets - also Arte hates the owner of the Mets.

8 ) Red Sox? Maybe? -- Same issue with the rest of the east coast teams.

 

 

All teams listed you make a good point. Of all those teams which one ends up in playoffs every year?

[Tank]

59 minutes ago, warped said:

Do you trade, Michael Jordan,  babe Ruth 

Ruth was traded.

Wayne Gretzky was traded in his prime.

[floplag]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

On your first point, yes I think the Angels could win a bidding war. He won bidding wars for Hamilton, Pujols and Rendon, and he’s going even more motivation to win this one. Plus, I don’t think Ohtani necessarily needs every dollar he can get. If Ohtani would rather play for the Angels than Dodgers, he’ll sign with the Angels, no matter what the Dodgers offer. 
 

As for your second question, it is very possible that whoever signs Ohtani ends up regretting it. That’s true of every premium free agent. 

Well, you know more than i but from my spot that seems very optimistic.  I guess ill leave it at that 

[floplag]

1 hour ago, T.G. said:

If Ohtani walks, I will view Arte Moreno as the owner who did what he could to keep him.  Even though I'm not the biggest Arte fan, I won't hold it against him if Ohtani walks. I don't see any possible way Arte trades him before the end of the season. The team has a legitimate shot at the post-season.  Whatever happens when this season is done will be on Ohtani.  He will have all the control and has earned that right.  I just want the Angels to make it an obvious decision for him to stay.  They've already done a lot to that end.  Now, they just need to win and let Arte take care of the rest.

I see it as the exact opposite.  The time for that effort passed on opening day.
Hes literally giving away the golden ticket. 
This club has needs, he could fill a number of them them overnight instead of overpaying for them in free agency.
Lets not kid ourselves we dont have a ton more help coming from the farm the next couple years.
So he walks, we get nothing, and were even worse off back on the never ending 1 year contract carousel ... how has that worked for us so far?
 

[T.G.]

11 minutes ago, floplag said:

I see it as the exact opposite.  The time for that effort passed on opening day.
Hes literally giving away the golden ticket. 
This club has needs, he could fill a number of them them overnight instead of overpaying for them in free agency.
Lets not kid ourselves we dont have a ton more help coming from the farm the next couple years.
So he walks, we get nothing, and were even worse off back on the never ending 1 year contract carousel ... how has that worked for us so far?
 

OR...

The Angels make the postseason and have an amazing season WITH Ohtani.  He signs a long term deal after the season.  Everyone is happy...

Well, maybe not everyone...

THIS is the season to go ALL IN.  Not trade THE key piece and fold.

[Dtwncbad]

7 minutes ago, floplag said:

So he walks, we get nothing, and were even worse off

No, if you don’t trade him you get Ohtani (basically two elite players) for the pennant drive this year (and nothing is more important than a real shot at winning a ring), and if he doesn’t resign with the Angels the Angels get compensation picks and about $500 million to spend on other players or player development.

[AngelsFaninGA]

The team is playing well and Ohtani is leading the charge. There's zero reason to trade him. It would immediately sink the season. 

[floplag]

9 minutes ago, T.G. said:

OR...

The Angels make the postseason and have an amazing season WITH Ohtani.  He signs a long term deal after the season.  Everyone is happy...

Well, maybe not everyone...

THIS is the season to go ALL IN.  Not trade THE key piece and fold.

Be honest, how likely do you think that is... give me some odds?

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, floplag said:

Be honest, how likely do you think that is... give me some odds?

I have no idea.  I think it's possible. That's enough for me.  It doesn't even matter what I think.  I believe the Angels think they can contend and their best chance is with Ohtani. That's all that matters.  Quite frankly, I like that they think they can contend.

And I expect them to add pieces by the deadline. 

[floplag]

9 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No, if you don’t trade him you get Ohtani (basically two elite players) for the pennant drive this year (and nothing is more important than a real shot at winning a ring), and if he doesn’t resign with the Angels the Angels get compensation picks and about $500 million to spend on other players or player development.

Oh well, a sandwich pick after the first round in the draft makes i all soooo much better.   and those players will really help... in a few years.