[Athletic] Joe Maddon Sounds off on Analytics

[IheartLA]

16 hours ago, Trendon said:

It’s pretty clear from this interview (and others) that Joe and Perry were not on the same page.

What’s odd to me, though, is that Perry was clearly very emotional and sad at the press conference discussing Maddon’s firing.

Was it an act? It doesn’t seem like you’d be that emotional in firing a guy who you were clearly in disagreement with.

lol Perry was doing the fake tears when Albert was released, once I saw that I realized he's a showman. No way he'd actually be sad about having to cut phat Albert.

[Tank]

15 hours ago, ArkyAngelsFan said:

Dolly Madison?

~ArkyAngelsFan~

i agree.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

i agree.

I was huge fan of zingers as a kid a regular zinger zapper if you will. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 minute ago, Inside Pitch said:

I was huge fan of zingers as a kid a regular zinger zapper if you will. 

I just pictured Batman and Robin fighting some of Jokers henchmen

[ArkyAngelsFan]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

i agree.

They look like chocolate -covered Twinkies. Dang, now I'm really wanting some...

~ArkyAngelsFan~

[Tank]

44 minutes ago, ArkyAngelsFan said:

They look like chocolate -covered Twinkies. Dang, now I'm really wanting some...

~ArkyAngelsFan~

the raspberry ones were even better. they had some kind of raspberry coconut topping covering the outside of one.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, Tank said:

the raspberry ones were even better. they had some kind of raspberry coconut topping covering the outside of one.

The yellow ones were awful.  

[Tank]

8 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

The yellow ones were awful.  

the ones with frosting on top? gonna have to disagree with you on that one.

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, Tank said:

the ones with frosting on top? gonna have to disagree with you on that one.

The frosting tended to harden into a plastic inedible thing. Made no sense since my parents used to buy the boxes that had both the chocolate and vanilla individually wrapped zingers.  You could take the chocolate frostings off, roll them up into a glorious thing of chocolatey goodness.  The yellow (vanilla) would just crack in half and make you hate your older sibling that snaked the last chocolate one.

Many a minor war was fought over the last chocolate zinger.... 

[Duren, Duren]

Maddon won a World Series 'his way.' And did pretty well over an extended time frame. Is it any surprise that he felt confident in his own managerial style? His reputation was built on results. Even if you try to qualify and debunk them with various narratives he still has a resume most other managers wish they had. 

He wasn't quite the dinosaur his critics claim. Analytics isn't an empirical science. Or an infallible dogma.  It's a tool. It's applied differently by organizations and individuals. Maddon filtered information in his personal way. Integrating it into his synthesis of baseball experience and inowledge. He didn't reject or ignore analytics as such. He merely used his judgment about how to apply what he thought was relevant.

The overall team results were not successful during his time with the Angels. But to isolate this one factor seems superficial. And the personality conflicts and power struggles are mostly gossip and innuendo. And shift attention away from other reasons for failure. 

Like the players themselves, and the roster assembled during those years. Managers get too much credit and too much blame. 

[Lou]

Maddon tried desperately to lose that WS with his bonehead decisions.

[Angel Oracle]

5 hours ago, Lou said:

Maddon tried desperately to lose that WS with his bonehead decisions.

His bullpen management left a lot to be desired.

[Angel Oracle]

Maddon also previously worked for 2 of the best FO guys in the business (Friedman and Epstein).

Those teams were loaded with talent.

[ScottT]

20 hours ago, Lou said:

Maddon tried desperately to lose that WS with his bonehead decisions.

 tee hee hee

 

14 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Maddon also previously worked for 2 of the best FO guys in the business (Friedman and Epstein).

Those teams were loaded with talent.

but he worked with them and doesnt have as bad of things to say...

maybe. just maybe... he has a good point. 

[ukyah]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:10 AM, IheartLA said:

lol Perry was doing the fake tears when Albert was released, once I saw that I realized he's a showman. No way he'd actually be sad about having to cut phat Albert.

you're way off. i can promise you one thing as gospel fact, and i say this as a fan who can't stand albert pujols.

the promise is that everybody inside mlb sees albert pujols very differently than you, i, or any angel fan does.

perry cutting an all time mlb great from the clubhouse was no easy decision, and it is only his trust in the cold hard numbers that empowered him to do that. i promise that was not an easy decision.

[Docwaukee]

20 minutes ago, ScottT said:

 tee hee hee

 

but he worked with them and doesnt have as bad of things to say...

maybe. just maybe... he has a good point. 

I remember his parting of ways with the cubs and Eppstein much differently.  

And personally, I find it rather telling that Friedman had the opportunity to hire Maddon for the Dogs.  He easily could have taken him along and didn't.  

21 hours ago, Duren, Duren said:

Maddon won a World Series 'his way.' And did pretty well over an extended time frame. Is it any surprise that he felt confident in his own managerial style? His reputation was built on results. Even if you try to qualify and debunk them with various narratives he still has a resume most other managers wish they had. 

He wasn't quite the dinosaur his critics claim. Analytics isn't an empirical science. Or an infallible dogma.  It's a tool. It's applied differently by organizations and individuals. Maddon filtered information in his personal way. Integrating it into his synthesis of baseball experience and inowledge. He didn't reject or ignore analytics as such. He merely used his judgment about how to apply what he thought was relevant.

The overall team results were not successful during his time with the Angels. But to isolate this one factor seems superficial. And the personality conflicts and power struggles are mostly gossip and innuendo. And shift attention away from other reasons for failure. 

Like the players themselves, and the roster assembled during those years. Managers get too much credit and too much blame. 

His confidence turned to arrogance in my opinion.  Analytics isn't infallible dogma but unless I have always misunderstood the definition of empirical science, it's certainly the latter or at least leads to it.  They clearly didn't agree with the way he was 'filtering' information.  And yes, it is a tool.  One that increases your odds of making better decisions which include a fair amount of uncertainty.  And using anecdotal experience as a way to do that and ignoring the data is why analytics have become a cornerstone of pretty much every sports franchise in the world.  Granted, it was likely more than just analytics that sealed his fate.  He likely didn't completely reject it but he used it backward in my opinion.  If it worked or aligned with his way then he accepted it.  Whereas he completely flew in the face of it with many of his decisions as if it was almost purposeful and in many cases, I actually think it was.  'I'm smarter than some damn computer' is what I could hear him saying in his head.  Or 'I'm gonna show the baseball world just how smart I am'.  

I don't doubt for a second that he and Minasian weren't on the same page.  Whether you want to consider that personality conflict or not is up to you.  But it was enough of a hierarchical mismatch to where he got fired in favor of what a second year GM thinks.  

And his willingness to air dirty laundry about the org is a pretty good example of the type of personality you're dealing with.   Imagine how he was behind closed doors

[Lou]

22 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I remember his parting of ways with the cubs and Eppstein much differently.  

And personally, I find it rather telling that Friedman had the opportunity to hire Maddon for the Dogs.  He easily could have taken him along and didn't.  

His confidence turned to arrogance in my opinion.  Analytics isn't infallible dogma but unless I have always misunderstood the definition of empirical science, it's certainly the latter or at least leads to it.  They clearly didn't agree with the way he was 'filtering' information.  And yes, it is a tool.  One that increases your odds of making better decisions which include a fair amount of uncertainty.  And using anecdotal experience as a way to do that and ignoring the data is why analytics have become a cornerstone of pretty much every sports franchise in the world.  Granted, it was likely more than just analytics that sealed his fate.  He likely didn't completely reject it but he used it backward in my opinion.  If it worked or aligned with his way then he accepted it.  Whereas he completely flew in the face of it with many of his decisions as if it was almost purposeful and in many cases, I actually think it was.  'I'm smarter than some damn computer' is what I could hear him saying in his head.  Or 'I'm gonna show the baseball world just how smart I am'.  

I don't doubt for a second that he and Minasian weren't on the same page.  Whether you want to consider that personality conflict or not is up to you.  But it was enough of a hierarchical mismatch to where he got fired in favor of what a second year GM thinks.  

And his willingness to air dirty laundry about the org is a pretty good example of the type of personality you're dealing with.   Imagine how he was behind closed doors

tee hee hee