OK Perry, time to sell

[Angels 1961]

6 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You can't have it both ways. Claim Upton is blocking him from playing this year and then say he is supposed to be where he is. 

Again, Adell is the only reason he is not playing on the Major league roster. It will be the same reason next season and the following if he doesn't progress. It doesn't matter who is on the roster next season. 

Adell is having a good season at SLC and will be in OF next year. Once Upton is gone a clear path for Adell. No need to rush him this season halos not going anywhere.

[Angels 1961]

12 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You can't have it both ways. Claim Upton is blocking him from playing this year and then say he is supposed to be where he is. 

Again, Adell is the only reason he is not playing on the Major league roster. It will be the same reason next season and the following if he doesn't progress. It doesn't matter who is on the roster next season. 

Adell 281 avg, 19 HR 57 RBI 906 OPS. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Adell 281 avg, 19 HR 57 RBI 906 OPS. 

None of the numbers you listed above are keeping Adell in the minors.

He is working on defense and doing a better job of controlling his at bats (strikeout rate should improve if he makes strides on this).

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Wood is the opposite side of the spectrum from Trout. Some folks are disappointed when people aren't Troutesque, and the same folks tend to think anyone who struggles is Brandon Wood. 99.99% of prospects are somewhere in between.

I liked it better when that guy always being mentioned as a bust was George Arias.

[Inside Pitch]

20 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Adell 281 avg, 19 HR 57 RBI 906 OPS. 

Benboom, 274 avg, 6 HR, 24 RBI, .916 OPS.

Hitting at elevation is a hell of a drug.

[VariousCrap]

The Angels need to sell...sell...and sell.

 

 

 

[DMVol]

18 minutes ago, VariousCrap said:

The Angels need to sell...sell...and sell.

and then sell some more.....

[Angelsjunky]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

I liked it better when that guy always being mentioned as a bust was George Arias.

I was never all that excited about Arias, and then, of course, Troy Glaus came around (and was probably drafted in 97 because of Arias' flop in '96).

Edited July 22, 2021 by Angelsjunky

[Inside Pitch]

13 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I was never all that excited about Arias, and then, of course, Troy Glaus came around (and was probably drafted in 97 because of Arias' flop in '96).

He was someone I wrote off as overrated due to park indexes and what I believed were plate discipline issues, but mostly I remember catching shit from Angels fans for talking about his red flags then watching everyone turn on him after they got exposed at the MLB level.

[AngelsLakersFan]

On 7/22/2021 at 8:34 AM, Dtwncbad said:

To me there are guys that just don’t pan out  in general, basically they have nothing left to prove in the minors but just don’t do well in the majors.  Often called AAAA players.  That’s a bust.

The limitation is their baseball talent ends up just not as good as people projected that baseball talent to be.

Then you have some different unique situations where a guy doesn’t make it from things that have nothing to do with their baseball talent.

Wood had a psychological anxiety problem.  It wasn’t that he was overrated or whatever.

Dallas McPherson’s back basically crumbled.  Had nothing to do with baseball talent.

I just think it’s cheap and inaccurate to keep hearing these names as example of the stupid Angels overhyping players that ended up busts.

 

I don't buy this. It just sounds like excuse making. Wood and McPherson didn't make it because they didn't have what it takes for whatever reason. I don't see how anxiety was a problem for Wood in AAA but not in A... was it the stress or the better curve balls? McPherson obviously was derailed by his back injury but there is no way to know how his high K, high power game would've actually played out in MLB if he was healthy. 

Players get injured or are unable to make adjustments all the time, it's part of the great filter. I thought Casey Kotchman was can't miss, and while I still believe in the talent the dude was just too fragile for whatever reason to become the player he could've been.

When evaluating prospects all these possibilities have to be considered. This is why sign-ability, body type and mental makeup are weighed so strongly on draft day. In the end you don't get credit for the failed prospects you think should have made it.

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't buy this. It just sounds like excuse making. Wood and McPherson didn't make it because they didn't have what it takes for whatever reason. I don't see how anxiety was a problem for Wood in AAA but not in A... was it the stress or the better curve balls? McPherson obviously was derailed by his back injury but there is no way to know how his high K, high power game would've actually played out in MLB if he was healthy. 

Players get injured or are unable to make adjustments all the time, it's part of the great filter. I thought Casey Kotchman was can't miss, and while I still believe in the talent the dude was just too fragile for whatever reason to become the player he could've been.

When evaluating prospects all these possibilities have to be considered. This is why sign-ability, body type and mental makeup are weighed so strongly on draft day. In the end you don't get credit for the failed prospects you think should have made it.

That’s fine your opinion.  But there is plenty of information on what happened to Wood psychologically.  And you might want to take an honest look at the actual real numbers McPherson put up in the big leagues despite having a wrecked back.

He could hit.  There is (to me anyway) zero doubt he would have been a high impact player if his back didn’t disintegrate.

I openly agree that neither ended up meeting the hopes and expectations.  That’s just the real world outcome that I would not dispute for a second.

The point I am making is these two names get thrown around all the time when the Angels have a promising prospect that Angel fans fear is “overrated” or “overhyped” worrying that they are not as good as advertised.

Maybe I am splitting hairs but I just don’t see how Wood or McPherson comparisons to Jo Adell make any sense, unless we specifically think Jo Adell is literally having a mental breakdown or we think he is in danger of wrecking his back.

I don’t think either Wood or McPherson were overrated as prospects.

I mean should we be talking about a top NBA draft pick being overrated and reference how Bobby Hurley ended up a “bust” (he got in a car accident that wrecked his career)?

If people can’t come up with a different name other than Wood or McPherson when it comes to Angel prospects of the past, they probably don’t know shit about prospects.

But to repeat, I do not dispute that these two were gigantic disappointments for Angel fans.  I just don’t think being overrated/overhyped (kinda hate that term) or lack of major league level baseball talent was the issue with either one of them.

[Angelsjunky]

49 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't buy this. It just sounds like excuse making. Wood and McPherson didn't make it because they didn't have what it takes for whatever reason. I don't see how anxiety was a problem for Wood in AAA but not in A... was it the stress or the better curve balls? McPherson obviously was derailed by his back injury but there is no way to know how his high K, high power game would've actually played out in MLB if he was healthy. 

Players get injured or are unable to make adjustments all the time, it's part of the great filter. I thought Casey Kotchman was can't miss, and while I still believe in the talent the dude was just too fragile for whatever reason to become the player he could've been.

When evaluating prospects all these possibilities have to be considered. This is why sign-ability, body type and mental makeup are weighed so strongly on draft day. In the end you don't get credit for the failed prospects you think should have made it.

What is it that you don't buy? That psychology is a huge factor in a player's success? You just said that mental makeup is a factor. We can go beyond baseball - plenty of talent people haven't "made it" in any number of fields for reasons that have nothing to do with their actual talent in their field. 

I mean, you could be right that Wood and McPherson didn't have the full package of talent to be as good as we hoped. I think that could be especially true of Wood, who saw his numbers drop off after that crazy season in A+ - meaning, his weaknesses were exposed when he faced better pitchers.

But psychology is a huge part of all this, including, perhaps, an almost naive degree of self-confidence. Meaning, you could have two equally talented players, but one is confident and the other not, and the confident guy is the one who will make it.

 

[Angelsjunky]

39 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

But to repeat, I do not dispute that these two were gigantic disappointments for Angel fans.  I just don’t think being overrated/overhyped (kinda hate that term) or lack of major league level baseball talent was the issue with either one of them.

I agree with what you're saying (see my above post), but would only say that I think that fans tend to overrate/overhype almost all of their team's prospects. Even the seemingly most unbiased, analytical types. It is just human nature. You look at a guy like Adell and it is hard not to dream big. Even the more reasonable folks still see the archetype of their potential. You look at Adell and he could be Dave Winfield. The problem is, for every Dave Winfield there are a dozen guys with similar talent who become lesser players.

I think the so-called "X-Factor" is both hugely important and impossible to quantify.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't buy this. It just sounds like excuse making. Wood and McPherson didn't make it because they didn't have what it takes for whatever reason. 

D-Mac was 100% injuries.    117 games, 18 HRs 45 RBI, 755 OPS, as an Angel, a .776 OPS in his final season in Anaheim..   His back betrayed him and he's a bust as a result but he had the skills/ability. 

Of all the Angels hyped up prospects from that era he was easily the most raw talent.  Guy played baseball at The Citadel, he was basically training to be military and played baseball on the side.   Despite the limited game time in college he was a one level a year guy as a pro..

[Dtwncbad]

8 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I agree with what you're saying (see my above post), but would only say that I think that fans tend to overrate/overhype almost all of their team's prospects. Even the seemingly most unbiased, analytical types. It is just human nature. You look at a guy like Adell and it is hard not to dream big. Even the more reasonable folks still see the archetype of their potential. You look at Adell and he could be Dave Winfield. The problem is, for every Dave Winfield there are a dozen guys with similar talent who become lesser players.

I think the so-called "X-Factor" is both hugely important and impossible to quantify.

I have so much sympathy for Wood.  I don’t know if his psychological challenges were unavoidable or not, but you have to believe the hysteria over him was pretty overwhelming.

There is some small amount of irony if the fans’ hysteria over him contributed to his mental challenges, and then ultimately created a whipping boy for those same fans to mock forever.

It just sucks.

I used to go to Utah a lot for work and would catch Bees games when he was there.  That kid was so incredibly nice to the local kids in the stands.  He went way out of his way to make lots of kids feel special by interacting with them.

I will always like Wood and view him positively.

[Angelsjunky]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I have so much sympathy for Wood.  I don’t know if his psychological challenges were unavoidable or not, but you have to believe the hysteria over him was pretty overwhelming.

There is some small amount of irony if the fans’ hysteria over him contributed to his mental challenges, and then ultimately created a whipping boy for those same fans to mock forever.

It just sucks.

I used to go to Utah a lot for work and would catch Bees games when he was there.  That kid was so incredibly nice to the local kids in the stands.  He went way out of his way to make lots of kids feel special by interacting with them.

I will always like Wood and view him positively.

I hear you. It is a problem with how we view mental health, that is still prevalent in our society - probably more so in uber-macho domains like sports. "The kid can't hack it." "Man up." etc etc. It is actually a huge problem with military veterans, almost all of whom come home with varying degrees of PTSD (I mean, how couldn't they?) and either the treatment options are shitty or they can't get around the stigma. It is really sad.

[Dtwncbad]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

D-Mac was 100% injuries.    117 games, 18 HRs 45 RBI, 755 OPS, as an Angel, a .776 OPS in his final season in Anaheim..   His back betrayed him and he's a bust as a result but he had the skills/ability. 

Of all the Angels hyped up prospects from that era he was easily the most raw talent.  Guy played baseball at The Citadel, he was basically training to be military and played baseball on the side.   Despite the limited game time in college he was a one level a year guy as a pro..

There was a time when, deep into his minor league career, D-Mac’s minor league numbers were basically identical to another player’s minor league career.

It was shocking how similar the numbers were.

The other player was Ryan Howard.  I know you can’t automatically translate similar numbers into the same career.  But I think McPhersons actual performance in the bigs with a destroyed back suggest this comparison is not a stretch at all. . . Had he stayed healthy.

 

[Angelsjunky]

13 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

D-Mac was 100% injuries.    117 games, 18 HRs 45 RBI, 755 OPS, as an Angel, a .776 OPS in his final season in Anaheim..   His back betrayed him and he's a bust as a result but he had the skills/ability. 

Of all the Angels hyped up prospects from that era he was easily the most raw talent.  Guy played baseball at The Citadel, he was basically training to be military and played baseball on the side.   Despite the limited game time in college he was a one level a year guy as a pro..

Wrong. DMac was 99.42% injuries. It was 0.58% because he didn't have what it takes.

[Angelsjunky]

9 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I have so much sympathy for Wood.  

By the way, I also have sympathy for wood. Especially when it is inappropriate.

[AngelsLakersFan]

6 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

What is it that you don't buy? That psychology is a huge factor in a player's success? You just said that mental makeup is a factor. We can go beyond baseball - plenty of talent people haven't "made it" in any number of fields for reasons that have nothing to do with their actual talent in their field. 

I mean, you could be right that Wood and McPherson didn't have the full package of talent to be as good as we hoped. I think that could be especially true of Wood, who saw his numbers drop off after that crazy season in A+ - meaning, his weaknesses were exposed when he faced better pitchers.

But psychology is a huge part of all this, including, perhaps, an almost naive degree of self-confidence. Meaning, you could have two equally talented players, but one is confident and the other not, and the confident guy is the one who will make it.

 

My point was I don’t buy Wood’s mental state as a reason for his failure, and if by chance it was, mental fortitude is as important a skill as anything baseball specific.

[AngelsLakersFan]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

D-Mac was 100% injuries.    117 games, 18 HRs 45 RBI, 755 OPS, as an Angel, a .776 OPS in his final season in Anaheim..   His back betrayed him and he's a bust as a result but he had the skills/ability. 

Of all the Angels hyped up prospects from that era he was easily the most raw talent.  Guy played baseball at The Citadel, he was basically training to be military and played baseball on the side.   Despite the limited game time in college he was a one level a year guy as a pro..

He very well could’ve been great, we’ll never know. At the time of his injury the jury was still out on him. Many people were concerned he couldn’t make enough contact to stick in the big leagues. I don’t think it’s accurate to act like he was Tony Conigliaro.

[jsnpritchett]

R. Iglesias and Cobb/Heaney for Ruiz.  (They'd probably still turn it down...)

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

He very well could’ve been great, we’ll never know. At the time of his injury the jury was still out on him. Many people were concerned he couldn’t make enough contact to stick in the big leagues. I don’t think it’s accurate to act like he was Tony Conigliaro.

You are mixing him up with someone else I think.

The concerns were about walk rate, and number of strikeouts but his contact rates were actually good, to very good in the minors and approached 75% Z-contact at the MLB level.  The other concern scouts had was he had a tendency to put the ball on the ground/pull things.  To be honest he would have been the poster boy for launch angle believers.  His career worst soft contact rate in any one season was 12.1%.  For his career his hard/ medium contact rates combined for 90.1%, a number pretty much unheard of... even Mike Trout hasn't put up a figure that high in any one season.   

But just as you say its not accurate to compare him to Conigliaro, it's not accurate to lump him in with guys who failed/floundered, he was doing it but his back issues robbed him of the opportunity.

I was always big on DMac despite having been a massive Glaus fan because the data argued he was going to succeed.  The same predictive data that outed Wood as overrated argued DMac would have MLB success, even if the Ks remained a problem.

[GoodTimesGoneBad]

13 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

R. Iglesias and Cobb/Heaney for Ruiz.  (They'd probably still turn it down...)

R Iglesias and CRod would get it done. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

20 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You are mixing him up with someone else I think.

The concerns were about walk rate, and number of strikeouts but his contact rates were actually good, to very good in the minors and approached 75% Z-contact at the MLB level.  The other concern scouts had was he had a tendency to put the ball on the ground/pull things.  To be honest he would have been the poster boy for launch angle believers.  His career worst soft contact rate in any one season was 12.1%.  For his career his hard/ medium contact rates combined for 90.1%, a number pretty much unheard of... even Mike Trout hasn't put up a figure that high in any one season.   

But just as you say its not accurate to compare him to Conigliaro, it's not accurate to lump him in with guys who failed/floundered, he was doing it but his back issues robbed him of the opportunity.

I was always big on DMac despite having been a massive Glaus fan because the data argued he was going to succeed.  The same predictive data that outed Wood as overrated argued DMac would have MLB success, even if the Ks remained a problem.

I'm not mixing him up it's just been awhile, lol. I remember the minor league K rate around 30%, the lack of walks and his pull tendency. I didn't think he'd flame out but I didn't expect him to have the career Howie Kendrick did, more of a Tony Batista type.