OK Perry, time to sell

[Angels_Make_Me_Drink]

Just now, stormngt said:

So let's keep signing  vets for 8 million a year and produce 5+ ERAs.  Sounds like a plan.

If you want to be a moron and stubborn and try to make your point by manipulating what I said, then sure. But I said to pony up and sign or trade for a legit #2 option to pair with Ohtani and then let the young guys battle out 3-4-5 

[stormngt]

20 hours ago, ukyah said:

well, i certainly understand that sentiment and agree with it in principal, but the angels need to get serious about winning and they need the real deal at the top of the rotation to go along with that list.

 

marquez, ohtani, sandoval, suarez, canning, barria, rodriguez, detmer looks a who lot better to me when talking about a playoff team. plenty of opportunity for young guys to make a good rotation great. that's what real contenders look like.

also, get serious about the friggin bullpen. give me a break already. i'm bored of the same story every year.

I am all for looking to get a top of rotation order through trades.  I am not a fan of giving 30+ million a year.  Those contracts never work out and we have too many on the team already.  Plus Ohtani is going to get paid.  

I am against dumpster diving we have doing the last three years.  

And I am tired of if a shitty bullpen.  10 out of 11 years of blowpen is enough

Edited July 21, 2021 by stormngt

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

So let's keep signing  vets for 8 million a year and produce 5+ ERAs.  Sounds like a plan.

You’ll get your wish next year.  Barria will be on the major league team or some other major league team next year. To me going into next year he’s our fourth or fifth starter if we don’t acquire any other starter and don’t resign our own.  Problem is if he’s in the rotation something bad happened.  

[stormngt]

2 minutes ago, Angels_Make_Me_Drink said:

If you want to be a moron and stubborn and try to make your point by manipulating what I said, then sure. But I said to pony up and sign or trade for a legit #2 option to pair with Ohtani and then let the young guys battle out 3-4-5 

I have no problem with that.

[stormngt]

Just now, Stradling said:

You’ll get your wish next year.  Barria will be on the major league team or some other major league team next year. To me going into next year he’s our fourth or fifth starter if we don’t acquire any other starter and don’t resign our own.  Problem is if he’s in the rotation something bad happened.  

I expect him to ve a #4 or  5th starter.

I disagree with your assessment that it will be bad.  I don't care if they trade him.  I am just sick and tired of seeing worse starters in the rotation and he isn't. 

[Stradling]

Just now, stormngt said:

I expect him to ve a #4 or  5th starter.

I disagree with your assessment that it will be bad.  I don't care if they trade him.  I am just sick and tired of seeing worse starters in the rotation and he isn't. 

The reason I said it means bad things happen is it means either Canning hasn’t improved, we didn’t address the front of our rotation, or Detmers and CRod aren’t ready.  There is virtually no way Canning regains form, Detmers and CRod are in the rotation, we addressed the front end of the rotation and Barria is in the rotation.  On this team right now he would be our 5th best starter.  Only one guy is leaving that is part of the four ahead of him and that is Cobb.  

[stormngt]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

The reason I said it means bad things happen is it means either Canning hasn’t improved, we didn’t address the front of our rotation, or Detmers and CRod aren’t ready.  There is virtually no way Canning regains form, Detmers and CRod are in the rotation, we addressed the front end of the rotation and Barria is in the rotation.  On this team right now he would be our 5th best starter.  Only one guy is leaving that is part of the four ahead of him and that is Cobb.  

Remember we have a 6 man rotation and Heaney and Cobb are free agents.  I do not have a problem trying to re-sign Cobb thru FA or extend him before the deadline.

Heaney is no better than a 5 over his career.  I believe if given a chance Barria will have better ERA+ over his career than Heaney.  He already is ahead of Heaney in that regard in less than three seasons.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, stormngt said:

Remember we have a 6 man rotation and Heaney and Cobb are free agents.  I do not have a problem trying to re-sign Cobb thru FA or extend him before the deadline.

Heaney is no better than a 5 over his career.  I believe if given a chance Barria will have better ERA+ over his career than Heaney.  He already is ahead of Heaney in that regard in less than three seasons.

Ok, here are the needs the Angels have going into next year.

Bullpen, lots of bullpen

TOR arm.

If by chance we solve those, then Barria doesn’t make sense on the team, since he is out of options.  

TOR Guy

Ohtani

Sandoval

Suarez

Canning

Barria?

Detmers

CRod

If Barria struggles as a starter next year, there is nothing you can do about it.  You have to pitch him, trade him, or release him.  

If it were me I would trade both Barria and Canning.  I’d trade Barria for another Barria but with options, and possibly someone who has the stuff to work out of the pen.  Canning would be part of the trade to bring in the TOR arm.   

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

This org is confusing.  It seems like they avoid guys who don’t throw mid 90s, and thus bypass Barria.

Yet, they bring in a bunch of soft tossers for most of the pen.

Well, after years of hearing all of us bitch about the pitching, they decided to bring in shitbirds in the bullpen. It makes the starters look better.

Its why we manscape our junk.

[Angels Fan Forever]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

If Barria struggles as a starter next year, there is nothing you can do about it.  You have to pitch him, trade him, or release him.  

That's a good point. He's make it or break it next year.

He did struggle tonight in Tacoma - 3.1 IP 5 H, 1 HR, 4 ER's.

I still think he could end up being a really nice bullpen piece. He could be part of that rebuild if he's not a SP.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Ok, here are the needs the Angels have going into next year.

Bullpen, lots of bullpen

TOR arm.

If by chance we solve those, then Barria doesn’t make sense on the team, since he is out of options.  

TOR Guy

Ohtani

Sandoval

Suarez

Canning

Barria?

Detmers

CRod

If Barria struggles as a starter next year, there is nothing you can do about it.  You have to pitch him, trade him, or release him.  

If it were me I would trade both Barria and Canning.  I’d trade Barria for another Barria but with options, and possibly someone who has the stuff to work out of the pen.  Canning would be part of the trade to bring in the TOR arm.   

I have no problem with that.  However I will be bitching on this board is Barria does better than those we kept.

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Ok, here are the needs the Angels have going into next year.

Bullpen, lots of bullpen

TOR arm.

If by chance we solve those, then Barria doesn’t make sense on the team, since he is out of options.  

TOR Guy

Ohtani

Sandoval

Suarez

Canning

Barria?

Detmers

CRod

If Barria struggles as a starter next year, there is nothing you can do about it.  You have to pitch him, trade him, or release him.  

If it were me I would trade both Barria and Canning.  I’d trade Barria for another Barria but with options, and possibly someone who has the stuff to work out of the pen.  Canning would be part of the trade to bring in the TOR arm.   

Where you and I may differ is that I do not think we need a TOR.  I think we need one more starter you can rely on.  Trading Canning should give us that.  

Then I would use whatever assets we have (money or trade) to get a lockdown bullpen and extend Ohtani.

If we can get a TOR through trade even better.  We do have a number of tradable young players

Walsh, Thaiss, Rengifro,  Adell/Adam's. Rojas, canning or Barria. 

You you be willing a trade of Adell, Barria and one other get us a TOR?

Could we get on for that package or do we have replace Canning with Barria?

[Angels Fan Forever]

I don't see Canning getting anything of value in a trade this month.

1. He sucks.

2. He's injured.

[Angelsjunky]

6 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

Ok, you and I clearly disagree on strategy for this season (and other things).  And that's ok. ... Again, totally fine if you disagree.

No, it's not. Haven't you been paying attention to society? It is no longer OK to disagree. We must be at each other's throats all the time about every thing, so that we can ignore the absurdity of mega-billionaires flying into space in techno-penises while their employees pee in Snapple bottles because they don't have accessible bathrooms.

[Jeff Fletcher]

3 hours ago, Angels_Make_Me_Drink said:

If Marsh could get us Bieber; I move him in a heart beat. A top 2 of Bieber and Ohtani...nut!

The Indians wanted Marsh and another prospect for one year of Kluber (coming off an injury).

On a separate note, I think you guys should take a look at José Berrios Baseball-Reference page before you decide how good he is and what he’s worth. It seems to me like he’s one of those guys whose name recognition has now exceeded his actual performance. 

[Angels Fan Forever]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The Indians wanted Marsh and another prospect for one year of Kluber (coming off an injury).

On a separate note, I think you guys should take a look at José Berrios Baseball-Reference page before you decide how good he is and what he’s worth. It seems to me like he’s one of those guys whose name recognition has now exceeded his actual performance. 

How so? I haven't seen any red flags on his BR page. I must be missing something?

This is what I see in Berrios. He is a 27 year old (same age as Ohtani) who is very durable. He doesn't miss starts and has never been on the IL. He is a 32 Start/190 IP guy since 2016. He is getting better each year and could be even more valuable for a team with a six man rotation.

I think he immediately becomes our #2 behind Ohtani and would give us a formidable #1 and #2 in a playoff series. 

[HaloBronco]

17 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

And Cobb, DO EVERYTHING to te-sign them both.

Agree, they need to keep Raisel Iglesias and Cobb.

Probably even keep Jose Iglesias too (who else would play short). 

[Dtwncbad]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The Indians wanted Marsh and another prospect for one year of Kluber (coming off an injury).

On a separate note, I think you guys should take a look at José Berrios Baseball-Reference page before you decide how good he is and what he’s worth. It seems to me like he’s one of those guys whose name recognition has now exceeded his actual performance. 

Maybe.  But the attention comes from him being potentially available.  Enthusiasm for Barrios is at least more rational than fantasizing about trading for players that are realistically unattainable.  And the fact is Berrios would make the Angels rotation better.

If the Angels acquired Berrios, who would you predict would lead the team in innings pitched and wins in 2022?

[Inside Pitch]

10 hours ago, Angels Fan Forever said:

How so? I haven't seen any red flags on his BR page. I must be missing something?

This is what I see in Berrios. He is a 27 year old (same age as Ohtani) who is very durable. He doesn't miss starts and has never been on the IL. He is a 32 Start/190 IP guy since 2016. He is getting better each year and could be even more valuable for a team with a six man rotation.

I think he immediately becomes our #2 behind Ohtani and would give us a formidable #1 and #2 in a playoff series. 

He's correctly pointing out that he's never really been great and is being overrated by people. 

He's one of those guys that everyone keeps waiting for him to have that huge breakout season, possibly because the K totals have always been so good but hasn't really done it it yet.  For his career he's  got 4.11 ERA, 4.03 FIP.   If you throw out his first year where he was bad, he's sporting a career ERA+ of 115.  So far this year it's 113.  

Sandoval -- 121
Cobb -- 118
Suarez -- 164

All this year.

Barria's 123 ERA+ in his rookie year and 130 last year are both better marks than Berrios has ever managed in any season.  

It's not that he wouldn't be an upgrade, he's just not the front of the rotation beast that some seem to think he is.  

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

He's never been great but he's avoided major injuries and is on pace to pitch 200 innings this year which he accomplished in 2019 after pitching 192.1 in 2018.  Comparing his career ERA+ where you stripped out his first year is over 716 IP against the 2021 ERA+ of Sandoval, Cobb and Suarez isn't fair.  Cobb is 33 and having his best year in 6 years in a contract year.  Sandoval has pitched 139 innings while Suarez is at 124.1 in the majors.  I get what you're saying that Berrios gets more mention or attention by some than he's earned but he's also a guy coming into the prime of his career age wise who could make that leap to elite starter.        

[totdprods]

26 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

He's correctly pointing out that he's never really been great and is being overrated by people. 

He's one of those guys that everyone keeps waiting for him to have that huge breakout season, possibly because the K totals have always been so good but hasn't really done it it yet.  For his career he's  got 4.11 ERA, 4.03 FIP.   If you throw out his first year where he was bad, he's sporting a career ERA+ of 115.  So far this year it's 113.  

Sandoval -- 121
Cobb -- 118
Suarez -- 164

Barria's 123 ERA+ in his rookie year and 130 last year are both better marks than Berrios has ever managed in any season.  

It's not that he wouldn't be an upgrade, he's just not the front of the rotation beast that some seem to think he is.  

Hmm, sounds similar to what was said about Zack Wheeler. 

Wheeler, pre-Phillies: 126 G, 749 IP, 3.77 ERA, 3.71 FIP, 100 ERA+, 1.29 WHIP, 8.4 H9, 0.9 HR9, 3.2 BB9, 8.7 K9, ages 23-29
Berrios, minus 1st yr: 121 G, 716 IP, 3.80 ERA, 3.85 FIP, 115 ERA+, 1.19 WHIP, 8 H9, 1.1 HR9, 2.7 BB9, 9.1 K9, ages 23-27

Wheeler's been a monster since. 30 GS, 2.61 ERA, 2.66 FIP, 1.06 WHIP, 159 ERA+.

He might be 'overrated', but I'd gladly take that gamble. We don't have anyone else in the system who really has an upside like he does. Even Detmers, Rodriguez, Canning, Bachman usually get mentioned with a ceiling around a #2 type. Berrios has #1 ability. 

If you can put together a package that gets you a reliever or Nick Gordon or a catcher or Rogers you have to consider it. Still leaves you money for another solid SP in FA too.

Edited July 21, 2021 by totdprods

[Inside Pitch]

6 minutes ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

He's never been great but he's avoided major injuries and is on pace to pitch 200 innings this year which he accomplished in 2019 after pitching 192.1 in 2018.  Comparing his career ERA+ where you stripped out his first year is over 716 IP against the 2021 ERA+ of Sandoval, Cobb and Suarez isn't fair.  Cobb is 33 and having his best year in 6 years in a contract year.  Sandoval has pitched 139 innings while Suarez is at 124.1 in the majors.  I get what you're saying that Berrios gets more mention or attention by some than he's earned but he's also a guy coming into the prime of his career age wise who could make that leap to elite starter.        

Oy Vey...   

It's not a direct comparison it's about trying to put some perspective on what he is and what he isn't to do that I pointed to guys Angels fans HAVE seen THIS YEAR, because the more I read this board the more I'm convinced the only times people watch other teams is when they play the Angels..  Berrios' career best ERA+ in ANY season is 122 -- that's the ONLY season he's managed to top even a 114 ERA+.  So despite your whining about "not being fair", I actually tried to paint him in his best light by excluding his rookie season which make his career numbers look much better than the 106 ERA+ it actually is.

Some of you are vastly overrating him because well, it's what Angels fans constantly do with name brands.  Smart teams trade for what a player has been when he's only one year away from FA.  They don't trade for the player they think he will be.  Those are the sorts of mistakes teams save for FA.

I like Berriros, but I'm not blind.  He's essentially the good version of Ervin Santana.

[Dtwncbad]

Aaaaaaaand this is when Angel fans have a temper tantrum over what the real world price is for a controllable starting pitcher who is “not that good” and say it’s crazy to trade quality for him, and then end up with scrap heap desperation signings that end up fully sucking and another year is lost.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Dtwncbad

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

There was no whining I was pointing out there was a difference comparing career numbers between the players.  I thought we were having a discussion yet you immediately go into condescending defensive mode accusing others of overvaluing someone not on the Angels and you're doing exactly that with guys who haven't pitched over 150 innings in the majors.  If the Angels acquire a legit arm I hope that guy produces and if they don't and/or Suarez/Sandoval are still on the team I hope they continue to produce. 

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

14 hours ago, stormngt said:

Barria unproven? As a starter with 216 innings pitched.   ERA 4.04!  ERA plus better than Heaney and Canning.  What more dies he need to prove?

He had one bad season when he was used as a reliever and we had the worst pitching coach in professional baseball (White)

Meaning the 2nd part!

The 1st part Heaney is serviceable problem has been catchers targets and organizational catching philosophy. Mix in a little too heavy analytics on over shifts, and defensive alignment for the entire staff and you are where we are at today!

I've watched more baseball in the last few weeks while in the hospital for a friend. 

People need to pay attention how other teams catchers setup within the strike box on tv.

White Sox, Red Sox, Rays, Giants rarely set up high! They pound the zone low and move inside/outside then climb the ladder when a head in the count.  Even the All Star catchers did this in the game! Why people don't see this with their own eyes I have no clue.

You look at where most of our pitchers get hurt. The target is up and the catcher sets up and the glove ends up down the middle of the plate. If they started down the middle ended up at the knees were talking about a huge difference of elevated pitches! Forcing the hitter to elevate on his finish of his swing.