OK Perry, time to sell

[Angelsjunky]

I know he can't say it publicly, but let's take stock:

10 GB first. 6.5 GB the second wildcard, with five teams ahead of them. Add in an inability to hold their own against winning teams, and....time to sell.

I don't expect him to make any moves for another week or so, and perhaps not even until the deadline (10 days from now), but I certainly hope he's having talks and leaning towards selling.

Again, both Raisel and Cobb could net the Angels some good prospects, even 50-55 FV types (if he's savvy, he could possibly bring in a 60 FV type for Raisel; Marsh is a 60 FV type). 

There's a big drop-off in trade value after those two, but Heaney and Iglesias, Gosselin, Ward, and even Watson and Cishek, could all bring in something. Who knows, if Upton comes back strong, maybe Perry can pull off a last-minute trade to a team wanting a bat.

I don't see him getting anything of value for Bundy, Quintana, Suzuki, Eaton, Lagares, Slegers, etc. 

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

I dont think the 6 games back of the WC is a big deal, to be honest. 

And Ill say here that if you asked anyone in March where the Angels would be at the break, without Trout for two months, theyd say "Dead". Then add "oh, AND rendon, and upton", it would be even worse.

I think the fact were .500 in the current situation is pretty impressive, TBH

And if we had 2 reliable relievers, we'd be right there in it.

And we still have Trout coming back.

But I agree that its better to sell. I think we could still make a run, but not a world series one. If you could set the 2022/23 team up fot a better position, do it.

Forget the Trout window. Its "shut" anyway. Better to focus on the next core window, with Ohtani being the say 2015/16 trout, and trout being the wise old vet, than to keep slapping bandaids on the dream of Trout being "the man" in October.

Id be just as happy to see old man/dad Trout deep in October as I would kid trout.

[Angelsjunky]

3 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I dont think the 6 games back of the WC is a big deal, to be honest. 

And Ill say here that if you asked anyone in March where the Angels would be at the break, without Trout for two months, theyd say "Dead". Then add "oh, AND rendon, and upton", it would be even worse.

I think the fact were .500 in the current situation is pretty impressive, TBH

And if we had 2 reliable relievers, we'd be right there in it.

And we still have Trout coming back.

But I agree that its better to sell. I think we could still make a run, but not a world series one. If you could set the 2022/23 team up fot a better position, do it.

Forget the Trout window. Its "shut" anyway. Better to focus on the next core window, with Ohtani being the say 2015/16 trout, and trout being the wise old vet, than to keep slapping bandaids on the dream of Trout being "the man" in October.

Id be just as happy to see old man/dad Trout deep in October as I would kid trout.

I disagree that the Trout window is "shut." The Angels have about 75% of a very good team: great offense, especially once everyone is back and Marsh and maybe Adell and Thaiss are up; good core young starters. They just need one very good starter and a bunch of relievers and they're a 90+ win team next year. IMO, of course.

Of course they're not completely out of it right now, but unless they go on a crazy win streak, I'd rather see them cut their losses and bring in guys who can help in the future, then hold onto diminishing hopes in squeezing into the post-season. I think their chances are probably like 10-15% of making it, which isn't enough not to invest in the future.

Worst-case scenario is that they don't sell or, worse, trade off prospects for rentals, and then don't make the playoffs, and lose Cobb and Raisel to free agency anyway.

[Jason]

10 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I dont think the 6 games back of the WC is a big deal, to be honest. 

And Ill say here that if you asked anyone in March where the Angels would be at the break, without Trout for two months, theyd say "Dead". Then add "oh, AND rendon, and upton", it would be even worse.

I think the fact were .500 in the current situation is pretty impressive, TBH

And if we had 2 reliable relievers, we'd be right there in it.

And we still have Trout coming back.

But I agree that its better to sell. I think we could still make a run, but not a world series one. If you could set the 2022/23 team up fot a better position, do it.

Forget the Trout window. Its "shut" anyway. Better to focus on the next core window, with Ohtani being the say 2015/16 trout, and trout being the wise old vet, than to keep slapping bandaids on the dream of Trout being "the man" in October.

Id be just as happy to see old man/dad Trout deep in October as I would kid trout.

Yes but will he be 100%? Soft tissue injuries tend to linger with professional athletes. I think we need to keep our expectations reasonable with him. 

[Torridd]

18 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I know he can't say it publicly, but let's take stock:

10 GB first. 6.5 GB the second wildcard, with five teams ahead of them. Add in an inability to hold their own against winning teams, and....time to sell.

I don't expect him to make any moves for another week or so, and perhaps not even until the deadline (10 days from now), but I certainly hope he's having talks and leaning towards selling.

Again, both Raisel and Cobb could net the Angels some good prospects, even 50-55 FV types (if he's savvy, he could possibly bring in a 60 FV type for Raisel; Marsh is a 60 FV type). 

There's a big drop-off in trade value after those two, but Heaney and Iglesias, Gosselin, Ward, and even Watson and Cishek, could all bring in something. Who knows, if Upton comes back strong, maybe Perry can pull off a last-minute trade to a team wanting a bat.

I don't see him getting anything of value for Bundy, Quintana, Suzuki, Eaton, Lagares, Slegers, etc. 

 

I'd like to keep Raisel. Everyone else on your list can go.

[Blarg]

7 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I disagree that the Trout window is "shut."

What he means by the Trout window being shut is they never built a team around the rising superstar, frittering away resources and making big turd splashes. Trout is locked in on his long term contract and it's the next rising star you have to convince to stay, he has to see the team improvement instead of one year bandaids.

The window to keep Ohtani is closing fast. Trout's window is permanently in place. 

[jsnpritchett]

2 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I dont think the 6 games back of the WC is a big deal, to be honest. 

I'd agree to some degree if there weren't also 5 other teams between the Angels and that 2nd WC. They're closer to having the same record as the Tigers than they are to being in the playoffs.

I understand that you do think they should sell, but just wanted to note the extreme uphill battle it would be to make it into the playoffs. 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by jsnpritchett

[Torridd]

They have to stop losing in the frustrated manner they've done in the last few games.

[Jason]

17 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I'd like to keep Raisel. Everyone else on your list can go.

If a team is willing to overpay for Raisel then I think it would be wise to listen to offers. 

[Redondo]

Trade all one year deals 

Play the kids

Probably get the same results and we get a look at the young guys in MLB situations 

Drafting 20 pitchers is rebuild mode

[Jason]

8 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

I'd agree to some degree if there weren't also 5 other teams between the Angels and that 2nd WC. They're closer to having the same record as the Tigers than they are of being in the playoffs.

I understand that you do think they should sell, but just wanted to note the extreme uphill battle it would be to make it into the playoffs. 

 

This means the Angels have to play really well and consistently while 5 other teams need to start playing poorly. That’s not a recipe for success 

[Angel Oracle]

25 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I'd like to keep Raisel. Everyone else on your list can go.

And Cobb, DO EVERYTHING to te-sign them both.

[JustATroutFan]

18 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

I disagree that the Trout window is "shut." The Angels have about 75% of a very good team: great offense, especially once everyone is back and Marsh and maybe Adell and Thaiss are up; good core young starters. They just need one very good starter and a bunch of relievers and they're a 90+ win team next year. IMO, of course.

Of course they're not completely out of it right now, but unless they go on a crazy win streak, I'd rather see them cut their losses and bring in guys who can help in the future, then hold onto diminishing hopes in squeezing into the post-season. I think their chances are probably like 10-15% of making it, which isn't enough not to invest in the future.

Worst-case scenario is that they don't sell or, worse, trade off prospects for rentals, and then don't make the playoffs, and lose Cobb and Raisel to free agency anyway.

It just seems like Trout is destined to be this generation's Ted Williams or Griffey Jr. The Red Sox wasted most of Williams' great seasons by not even qualifying for the postseason but the Mariners did the same thing during Griffey's prime, failing to build a solid starting pitching staff. Yes, the Big Unit was special when he took the mound but that was just one arm that the Mariners fully developed. People are saying that the Angela are wasting Trout's greatness for years now and they're not wrong. But in the case if the Angels win the World Series and Trout puts up something like a .330/.450/.600 slash line that same postseason, how much would if affect Trout's legacy? Would anyone ever have the guts to say that Trout's clutch or not? There was an article that I think you talked about a few months back on whether Trout would want Reggie's career over his because of World Series rings. I don't know Trout personally but if he rather have his career than Reggie's, I wouldn't be mad about it. Once Trout hangs up his cleats, he'll have to focus on his life, which includes his family. Winning World Series won't get a player big money. Playing like a superstar will get you a lot of money. 

[totdprods]

Buy and sell. I imagine the Angels would be just as competitive with Detmers replacing Heaney, Barria replacing one of Quintana/Bundy/Cobb, Higgins, AAA vets, eventually Bachman (maybe Rodriguez) replacing the pen. And I still think Adell, Canning, and a SS prospect get you a really good frontline arm for this year and at least next year. 

The biggest loss will be Raisel since there isn't really anyone capable of stepping in and replacing that, but there's a chance someone like Bachman might if he really does wind up being MLB-ready like Crochet was in the short-term. 

I also think packaging some of the pending FAs together could happen. A lot of the buying teams need help across the staff, and adding something like Heaney and Watson as your #5 and last guy in the pen could be a big step up. 

[Angel Oracle]

Start the clock towards 2022 contention.

DFA/trade the crappy/mediocre pitchers Heaney, Bundy, Cishek, Claudio, and Guerra.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Angel Oracle]

Just now, totdprods said:

Buy and sell. I imagine the Angels would be just as competitive with Detmers replacing Heaney, Barria replacing one of Quintana/Bundy/Cobb, Higgins, AAA vets, eventually Bachman (maybe Rodriguez) replacing the pen. And I still think Adell, Canning, and a SS prospect get you a really good frontline arm for this year and at least next year. 

The biggest loss will be Raisel since there isn't really anyone capable of stepping in and replacing that, but there's a chance someone like Bachman might if he really does wind up being MLB-ready like Crochet was in the short-term. 

I also think packaging some of the pending FAs together could happen. A lot of the buying teams need help across the staff, and adding something like Heaney and Watson as your #5 and last guy in the pen could be a big step up. 

Adell AND a key SS prospect is far too much for 1.3 controllable seasons.

[Angels Fan Forever]

We have the next 7 games against the Twins and the Rockies. Upton will be activated this week and Trout possibly this weekend or before the trade deadline next week. 

If we go 5-2 I don't think this team is selling.

[totdprods]

10 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Adell AND a key SS prospect is far too much for 1.3 controllable seasons.

Ideally you get more than that, but realistically it would probably take a package like that for a frontline arm that isn't a rental. You start with names like Bieber, Flaherty, Castillo, Alcantara, maybe Gallen, and wrap at names like Hendricks, Berrios and Scherzer (+extension). If you can work a RP, C, or SS into it - prospect, vet, whatever. Rogers, Kimbrel, Miguel Rojas, Contreras, etc. Remember, you also almost certainly get a QO pick in that scenario too, or an extension. 

You also have the opportunity to add to that depth by selling Iglesias, Heaney, Cobb, etc...it might be the caliber of Adell, Canning, but it could replace their place on the MLB depth until some of the further along guys with higher upside get closer.

I'm not saying this is a deal that has to be done or that a specific deal for a name above is 'worth it', simply saying that the Angels should be able to address a key need or two by putting that package together that wouldn't destroy the farm. Canning and Adell have plenty of question marks, plenty of value, and could be at a place where other prospects (Marsh, Detmers, Bachman) could be leap-frogging them if they haven't already on the MLB team's depth chart. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by totdprods

[eligrba]

This is a lost year because Minasian was not able to construct a bullpen that was league average, not a great bullpen, but an average bullpen.  Complete failure for a first year GM.  Not looking forward to the rest of his tenure if this is how it begins.

[angelsnationtalk]

As much as i'd love for the Angels to sell, it won't happen. 

They won't dare become a selling team with Mike Trout in his prime. Unfortunately, they don't have the balls to tell him we're going to tank for one more year, sell off what we can to get some solid pitching, and flip this B**** around for next season. 

The Angels will remain stuck in the middle..... again. They will trade guys on expiring contracts but that's about it..... Because they think that Trout and Upton coming back will send them to the moon (forgetting about pitching).

The only thing that is raising my eyebrows is the Marsh call up. Trout and Upton are nearing returns, Eaton just signed and Lagares and Ward are sitting there. The hell happens with Adell at this point. 

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

The only thing that is raising my eyebrows is the Marsh call up. Trout and Upton are nearing returns, Eaton just signed and Lagares and Ward are sitting there. The hell happens with Adell at this point.

Really not hard to imagine Marsh goes back once Upton and Trout are back, or takes over RF with Eaton as the 4th OF...Joe's thing about him being here for the year was almost certainly motivational, but it'll be a fluid couple weeks for both of them and the Angels.

[angelsnationtalk]

3 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Really not hard to imagine Marsh goes back once Upton and Trout are back, or takes over RF with Eaton as the 4th OF...Joe's thing about him being here for the year was almost certainly motivational, but it'll be a fluid couple weeks for both of them and the Angels.

It's time for both he and Adell to be up here and even if he gets sent down, he should still be a September call up. Just have a strange feeling that there will be some significant movement in the outfield coming soon. Not of the send down/call up area either.

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

I disagree that the Trout window is "shut." The Angels have about 75% of a very good team: 

Reference the first part. Im not at all suggesting trout as an elite player is done. Im saying that we should stop trying to build around him, and instead build around Ohtani (not because Ohtani is better, I mean it more as Ohtani representing the next core).

Like I said, if Trout won a ring this year, or 5 from now, its the same thing. But the 3-5 from now is a lot more realistic than right now.

As for the second part, I agree fully.

If the Angels had 2 more reliable pen arms this year, this team would be 10 games over .500 right now (rouvhly). Even with the injuries 

[Dtwncbad]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Adell AND a key SS prospect is far too much for 1.3 controllable seasons (of a high end starting pitcher).

I get your concern.  But unless Adell or the SS prospect can be a high end starting pitcher over that 1.3 controllable seasons, the Angels will continue to suffer from the same problem.

The idea is to solve the problem.

Everyone can agree to be careful not to get fleeced in a deal.  But the Angels should be willing to pay the full, retail price (market will dictate that price) for what they need.

[ten ocho recon scout]

21 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Really not hard to imagine Marsh goes back once Upton and Trout are back, or takes over RF with Eaton as the 4th OF...Joe's thing about him being here for the year was almost certainly motivational, but it'll be a fluid couple weeks for both of them and the Angels.

I think too that Marsh being called up is a desperation move to stay in the race. They would prefer not to do it, but knew rolling out infielders to play the outfield for an extended period was stupid.

I also imagine they accepted the rookie bat for the exchange of having a plus glove in CF to help the pitching