This Bullpen

[ten ocho recon scout]

Best picture to describe it.

(And Ive had this pic on my phone since 2013, and needed a reason to share it. No idea WTF is happening here. But thats the same feeling I get from the pen)

[DMVol]

We weren’t very good last year so Minasian got rid of them all….not much better this year…

[Angel Oracle]

[Angel Dog and Beer]

[Taylor]

[WicketMaiden]

Even though the pen has some holes in it, I still find Maddon's use of it baffling.

Why pull Canning so early and yet leave Watson in so long? Why an intentional walk with no outs rather than bringing in someone who might actually get Andrus out? Why set the team defence up the middle and then pitch Garcia down and away for the first out in the sixth - (any contact there is a double down the right field line with Walsh way off first)? Why not put Suarez in for the 6th to either finish out the game or hand over a lead to Raisel - he went four innings four days ago so he can clearly do it?

Some questionable decisions, some baffling ones.

[gotbeer]

1 hour ago, DMVol said:

We weren’t very good last year so Minasian got rid of them all….and didn't do anything to replace them…

Fixed.

[Chuck]

The bullpen.

[Vlad27Trout27]

I'll put this here and explain my reason Maddon is the reason the Bullpen is bad. 

My irritation with Maddon is the fact he does not or does not want to look at the strengths and weakness of his Bullpen. 

For Example Cishek, In Low Leverage situation, 18 Ip, Cishek has been really good. In medium to High leverage situations, Cishek (9ip) has been awful. Men on base, he has a whip of1.9, Era, FIp and Xfip close to 6. Base's empty, a whip of 1.07, FIp and Xfip of 1.77 and 3.08. Yet for some reason, Maddon does not look at  the stats and realize that  Cishek is better when pitching in a fresh ining, yet he brings him in with Runners on base. Once or twice it's fine, but it's a regular occurance with Maddon. 

So tuesday, with a runner on first, he should have never brought in Cishek! the right guy should have been Rodriguez at that moment! This isn't Cishek fault, it Maddon's fall for not judging Cishek's strengths, therefore this lose is on Maddon. 

 

Next situation, Today there was no reason to take Canning out at 69 pitches while only allowing  5 runner's on base through 5 innings. On the other side, Irvin was allowed to go pitch 5.2 innings while allowing 4 runs. But what ever, you bring in Watson, which i understand, but it was too early, I would have watson ready in the 7th inning. Making it worst he brings in Cishek with runner's on baseball....to anyone's suprise was a diaaster . Another game that we lost thanks to Maddon. 

We see the same bs by maddon throught out the season, and i can conclude that he's been responsible for atleast 7 lose to the season, just because he isn't willing to understand his pitcher's strengths and weakness. 

Yes, i know that our Bullpen is awful, but when used to a strength there are nice peices in the Bullpen. 

9th inning; Iglesias, easy and simple.

8th inning: Mayers, he's had 4 bad apearance that has inflated his era, with a small mechanic change he's looked good.  

7th inning: Suarez, he need a bigger role in the Bullpen. He's really important, and needs to be used more than once or twice a week! He's thrown over 17 Innings and has looked good! 

or, you place Suarez into key moment time of guy, and give the 7th inning to Watson. 

 6th: Cishek, put him in a lowe leverage spot with no one on base. 

 Gurrea put him as a mop guy, let him pitch in game's where we getting blownout. 

Claudi: another guy that has sucess in low levage situation. Pair him with Cishek, Gurrea..etc. 

 

So if a starter give's you 6 innings, you can go to your main weapons to end the game. 

if it's 5, than one of Cishek/Claudi depending on the matchup, then the big guns

Less than 4 inngs, we are probably getting blown out.

 

This has to be the way that Maddon need to  use his bullpen.

Even the A's have 3 guys that can be consider there main weapons, and these guys pitch in those specifc innings, while they also have guys with Era over or close to 5 and they pitch in Specific innings. 

 

If there are mistakes, I don't care this isn't an english class. 

[WicketMaiden]

34 minutes ago, cals said:

Maybe @Jeff Fletcher has an opinion on these decision?

And listen mate, I know you want to make friends here but I don’t think you really want to associate with the the anti-Maddon group.  Next thing you know you’ll have Grich coming up to you in the shower.

 

You're such a two dimensional thinker cals that I can't even be bothered to take the piss.

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Angel Dog and Beer said:

this made the loss acceptable, thanks!

[Mark PT]

10 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I'll put this here and explain my reason Maddon is the reason the Bullpen is bad. 

My irritation with Maddon is the fact he does not or does not want to look at the strengths and weakness of his Bullpen. 

For Example Cishek, In Low Leverage situation, 18 Ip, Cishek has been really good. In medium to High leverage situations, Cishek (9ip) has been awful. Men on base, he has a whip of1.9, Era, FIp and Xfip close to 6. Base's empty, a whip of 1.07, FIp and Xfip of 1.77 and 3.08. Yet for some reason, Maddon does not look at  the stats and realize that  Cishek is better when pitching in a fresh ining, yet he brings him in with Runners on base. Once or twice it's fine, but it's a regular occurance with Maddon. 

So tuesday, with a runner on first, he should have never brought in Cishek! the right guy should have been Rodriguez at that moment! This isn't Cishek fault, it Maddon's fall for not judging Cishek's strengths, therefore this lose is on Maddon. 

 

Next situation, Today there was no reason to take Canning out at 69 pitches while only allowing  5 runner's on base through 5 innings. On the other side, Irvin was allowed to go pitch 5.2 innings while allowing 4 runs. But what ever, you bring in Watson, which i understand, but it was too early, I would have watson ready in the 7th inning. Making it worst he brings in Cishek with runner's on baseball....to anyone's suprise was a diaaster . Another game that we lost thanks to Maddon. 

We see the same bs by maddon throught out the season, and i can conclude that he's been responsible for atleast 7 lose to the season, just because he isn't willing to understand his pitcher's strengths and weakness. 

Yes, i know that our Bullpen is awful, but when used to a strength there are nice peices in the Bullpen. 

9th inning; Iglesias, easy and simple.

8th inning: Mayers, he's had 4 bad apearance that has inflated his era, with a small mechanic change he's looked good.  

7th inning: Suarez, he need a bigger role in the Bullpen. He's really important, and needs to be used more than once or twice a week! He's thrown over 17 Innings and has looked good! 

or, you place Suarez into key moment time of guy, and give the 7th inning to Watson. 

 6th: Cishek, put him in a lowe leverage spot with no one on base. 

 Gurrea put him as a mop guy, let him pitch in game's where we getting blownout. 

Claudi: another guy that has sucess in low levage situation. Pair him with Cishek, Gurrea..etc. 

 

So if a starter give's you 6 innings, you can go to your main weapons to end the game. 

if it's 5, than one of Cishek/Claudi depending on the matchup, then the big guns

Less than 4 inngs, we are probably getting blown out.

 

This has to be the way that Maddon need to  use his bullpen.

Even the A's have 3 guys that can be consider there main weapons, and these guys pitch in those specifc innings, while they also have guys with Era over or close to 5 and they pitch in Specific innings. 

 

If there are mistakes, I don't care this isn't an english class. 

All of what you say is true but the bottom line is, outside of Suarez, there is not one bullpen piece that can control where he throws the ball. They are just hard throwers and not one pitcher. The people scouting and making personnel decisions are hot garbage. 

[T.G.]

Results don’t matter because they’re all good clubhouse guys.

[WicketMaiden]

18 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Results don’t matter because they’re all good clubhouse guys.

Good for the other clubhouse guys.

[Taylor]

12 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Results don’t matter because they’re all good clubhouse guys.

But their GCGAR (Good Clubhouse Guy Above Replacement) has never been the same since Dexter Fowler got injured.

[SlappyUtilityMIF]

1 hour ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

I'll put this here and explain my reason Maddon is the reason the Bullpen is bad. 

My irritation with Maddon is the fact he does not or does not want to look at the strengths and weakness of his Bullpen. 

For Example Cishek, In Low Leverage situation, 18 Ip, Cishek has been really good. In medium to High leverage situations, Cishek (9ip) has been awful. Men on base, he has a whip of1.9, Era, FIp and Xfip close to 6. Base's empty, a whip of 1.07, FIp and Xfip of 1.77 and 3.08. Yet for some reason, Maddon does not look at  the stats and realize that  Cishek is better when pitching in a fresh ining, yet he brings him in with Runners on base. Once or twice it's fine, but it's a regular occurance with Maddon. 

So tuesday, with a runner on first, he should have never brought in Cishek! the right guy should have been Rodriguez at that moment! This isn't Cishek fault, it Maddon's fall for not judging Cishek's strengths, therefore this lose is on Maddon. 

 

Next situation, Today there was no reason to take Canning out at 69 pitches while only allowing  5 runner's on base through 5 innings. On the other side, Irvin was allowed to go pitch 5.2 innings while allowing 4 runs. But what ever, you bring in Watson, which i understand, but it was too early, I would have watson ready in the 7th inning. Making it worst he brings in Cishek with runner's on baseball....to anyone's suprise was a diaaster . Another game that we lost thanks to Maddon. 

We see the same bs by maddon throught out the season, and i can conclude that he's been responsible for atleast 7 lose to the season, just because he isn't willing to understand his pitcher's strengths and weakness. 

Yes, i know that our Bullpen is awful, but when used to a strength there are nice peices in the Bullpen. 

9th inning; Iglesias, easy and simple.

8th inning: Mayers, he's had 4 bad apearance that has inflated his era, with a small mechanic change he's looked good.  

7th inning: Suarez, he need a bigger role in the Bullpen. He's really important, and needs to be used more than once or twice a week! He's thrown over 17 Innings and has looked good! 

or, you place Suarez into key moment time of guy, and give the 7th inning to Watson. 

 6th: Cishek, put him in a lowe leverage spot with no one on base. 

 Gurrea put him as a mop guy, let him pitch in game's where we getting blownout. 

Claudi: another guy that has sucess in low levage situation. Pair him with Cishek, Gurrea..etc. 

 

So if a starter give's you 6 innings, you can go to your main weapons to end the game. 

if it's 5, than one of Cishek/Claudi depending on the matchup, then the big guns

Less than 4 inngs, we are probably getting blown out.

 

This has to be the way that Maddon need to  use his bullpen.

Even the A's have 3 guys that can be consider there main weapons, and these guys pitch in those specifc innings, while they also have guys with Era over or close to 5 and they pitch in Specific innings. 

 

If there are mistakes, I don't care this isn't an english class. 

Great post. It's part of what I've been saying!

Also, include the lack of setting up by the catchers and basically placing the glove over the heart of the plate.

[Jeff Fletcher]

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 hours ago, cals said:

Maybe @Jeff Fletcher has an opinion on these decision?

And listen mate, I know you want to make friends here but I don’t think you really want to associate with the the anti-Maddon group.  Next thing you know you’ll have Grich coming up to you in the shower.

 

Did anyone get you yet?

[Angel Oracle]

Thing is, Maddon’s use of the pen with the Cubs was questionable, especially in the 2016 WS.

It’s definately not a strength of his.

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[thebloob]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

Of course you can always say that about any move any manager makes.   But it is their responsibility to put the players in positions to succeed.  
 

look at Pujols.  Total dumpster fire here most are glad he is gone. The dodgers have made him essentially a platoon guy against lefties and his stats are much better.  They are putting him in position to succeed and he is.  

[greginpsca]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

You forgot to finish with { All the time.]

[HeavenlyHalos]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

I agree with some of this even though I would have left both starters in; however, the way he used Rodriguez and Suarez the past two games is absolutely baffling to me.

[Revad]

If the pitching was manageable it would be easy to manage.

[Docwaukee]

is it reasonable to bring in Iglesias in a non-save situation?  Sure.  Yet for some reason he doesn't perform well in those spots.  Is that an aberration or a small sample?  Maybe.  But we all know the definition of insanity.  

Every manager has strengths and weaknesses.  To me, I don't think Joe manages a pen well.   Just my opinion.  But a GM has to know those strengths and weaknesses and much like a manager has to put his players in a position to succeed, a GM has to put his manager in a position to succeed.  I question whether Minassian has enough clout to tell Joe what to do or even move some players around in a way that he thinks will make Joe better but that's probably a whole other discussion.  

The bottom line is that the bullpen lacks talent.  You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.  Yes I think Joe could be doing better with the way he handles them but they're just not good and there isn't a manager on the planet that could make them so.  

[Blarg]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Here’s the bottom line…

Anyone can find some numbers that support whatever decision you think is right, which is most likely the decision you came to after seeing the results. 
 

The pitchers have to perform. Period. Maddon isn’t out there throwing the pitches for them. 

If he puts them in reasonable spots and they don’t do the job, it’s their fault, not his. 
 

There was nothing whatsoever unreasonable about his decisions to pull the starters the past two games or bring in the guys he did. 
 

They came in and sucked. It happens. 

69 pitches.

It was unsuportable decision in any way outside of an injury.