This Bullpen

[Jeff Fletcher]

I will add one more thing from yesterday…

The decision to leave Watson in was much more questionable than the decision to take Canning out. I honestly am not sure what the answer is because when we talked to Maddon I was so focused on the Canning/Watson choice that I didn’t ask why he didn’t pull Watson sooner. 
 

I may ask today. 

[tdawg87]

12 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The fact that they are weekly means I’m beating a dead horse, so I will try to stop. 

[Angels 1961]

Again Jeff is just giving his opinion. Pitchers will never learn to go deeper in games unless given the opportunity. You put in Canning's head after 75 pitches your done. In my opinion all you do is slow his progress down as a big league pitcher. All the pieces halos could have traded their value has gone down. Bundy, Watson, Cobb, Quintana, Cishek, and others. Time to use rest of season and see if any young pitchers can fill void in staff. Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, Canning, Ohtani and even Detmers should be in rotation rest of season. 

[tomsred]

39 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

The fact that they are weekly means I’m beating a dead horse, so I will try to stop. 

Personally, it will be disappointing if you stop.   I view the problem as one of flawed player personnel construction.  I don't think Madden's reasoning for handling the bullpen is flawed, what's flawed resides in the personnel who reside in the bullpen.  This is a GM and his staff problem.  To a large degree, most of the bullpen came to us with known problems.  Actually bullpen construction seems to be a afterthought for many GM's because of the unpredictability of the available inventory each year of bullpen pitchers.  Making the problem worse for the Angels is the fact that we haven't developed bullpen pitchers of our own very effectively, i.e. player development and drafting.  The Angels are in a position where they don't have enough self developed bullpen arms, so they are forced to roll the dice on what's available free agent wise, and that's a flawed pool.  Most of the blown relief pitcher failures have happened with veteran free agent pitchers on the mound.

The fix for all of this is not easy, and it's not going to be quick.  If I were the GM, it would be my number one priority right now, and while I may not be able to fix it soon I would be working hard on a detailed and long range plan to correct this issue.  And if I were the owner, I wouldn't be selecting a GM to lead this effort who thought of bullpen management and development as an afterthought because it is too unpredictable. 

 

   

[Angels 1961]

The fact is all the writers and even broadcasters who cover Angels do not want to ask hard questions. We are not on the cusp of winning, so is it time to REBUILD? Ask Trout is it coming to point where you would ask for a trade? As an Angel fan I'm sick and tired of losing with ZERO direction going forward. Stir this pot up make some noise. Same old crap bullpen stinks rotation stinks. I love SHO TIME  and FLETCH being FLETCH but halos far away from being a contender.

[failos]

5 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

You’re right about that. I tell myself not to respond but sometimes I can’t help myself. I need to just step back and let you guys have your venting. 

 

The point of that was to say that while they aren’t getting more pitches out of their starter - as Maddon had hoped - they’re not really getting less either. Their rotation is being managed pretty much like everyone else’s, when it comes to decisions made by the manager and not by the pitchers themselves with their performance. 

Nah you should keep chiming in. We enjoy having you post here.

[tomsred]

3 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I will add one more thing from yesterday…

The decision to leave Watson in was much more questionable than the decision to take Canning out. I honestly am not sure what the answer is because when we talked to Maddon I was so focused on the Canning/Watson choice that I didn’t ask why he didn’t pull Watson sooner. 
 

I may ask today. 

I predict that he will tell you the reason that he left Watson in so long was that many of those hits were ground ball hits.  A few feet one way or another and he could induce a double play.  Give the A's some credit, they found some holes with those hits, but they weren't hit that hard or that far.  

Another question would be what about the positioning of the infielders, were they faulty and are adjustments needed.

I don't see in game decisions as the most important job of the manager.  Much more important is the management of the players to provide encouragement and effort, i.e. obtaining the proper mindset to get the most out of the skills they possess.  Once the game starts, if the players have the right attitude and provide their best effort, there is little more that a manager can do to influence the game.  He maybe can effect a handful of games a year, but not that many with in game decisions.  As you indicated earlier, there are almost always reasons for the game decisions made, and just about anyone can come up with those reasons, including fans.  Plus there are tons of statistics that can be used to provide support for any decision.

 

 

[Reveille1984]

2 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Again Jeff is just giving his opinion. Pitchers will never learn to go deeper in games unless given the opportunity. You put in Canning's head after 75 pitches your done. In my opinion all you do is slow his progress down as a big league pitcher. All the pieces halos could have traded their value has gone down. Bundy, Watson, Cobb, Quintana, Cishek, and others. Time to use rest of season and see if any young pitchers can fill void in staff. Barria, Suarez, Sandoval, Canning, Ohtani and even Detmers should be in rotation rest of season. 

This is what I don't understand.  If you're going to baby a guy to this extent then why even bother using him as a starter?  If he continues to suck repeatedly in the same situations then you move on, if he maybe figures something out and improve then you have a good starter who's still only 25.

[Jeff Fletcher]

8 hours ago, Reveille1984 said:

This is what I don't understand.  If you're going to baby a guy to this extent then why even bother using him as a starter?  If he continues to suck repeatedly in the same situations then you move on, if he maybe figures something out and improve then you have a good starter who's still only 25.

I think there’s a time to push Canning past 75 pitches when he’s maybe showing some signs of cracking. Yes, he needs to learn. 
 

But it’s when you’ve got a 4-run lead and not a 2-run lead. 
 

Or when there are RHBs coming up.

Or when you’ve won 2 in a row and not lost 2 in a row. 
 

Or when he’s at the bottom of the order and not the middle. 
 

Or when he’s facing a bad team and not the first place team. 
 

Or when the perfect, most effective LH reliever you have, isn’t available. 

[Cosmo_Kramer]

23 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think there’s a time to push Canning past 75 pitches when he’s maybe showing some signs of cracking. Yes, he needs to learn. 
 

But it’s when you’ve got a 4-run lead and not a 2-run lead. 
 

Or when there are RHBs coming up.

Or when you’ve won 2 in a row and not lost 2 in a row. 
 

Or when he’s at the bottom of the order and not the middle. 
 

Or when he’s facing a bad team and not the first place team. 
 

Or when the perfect, most effective LH reliever you have, isn’t available. 

Pretty much this. Canning needs those chances to grow, but should still be smart with it

[Cosmo_Kramer]

1 minute ago, Cosmo_Kramer said:

Pretty much this. Canning needs those chances to grow, but should still be smart with it

Though I do think Canning could have started the 6th at least. If a guy gets on, then pull him for the gidp lefty

[tomsred]

1 hour ago, Cosmo_Kramer said:

Though I do think Canning could have started the 6th at least. If a guy gets on, then pull him for the gidp lefty

Or a righty , bet you can't hit that one in  the air......

 

[Angels 1961]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think there’s a time to push Canning past 75 pitches when he’s maybe showing some signs of cracking. Yes, he needs to learn. 
 

But it’s when you’ve got a 4-run lead and not a 2-run lead. 
 

Or when there are RHBs coming up.

Or when you’ve won 2 in a row and not lost 2 in a row. 
 

Or when he’s at the bottom of the order and not the middle. 
 

Or when he’s facing a bad team and not the first place team. 
 

Or when the perfect, most effective LH reliever you have, isn’t available. 

Or when you have a bullpen that stinks. Put down all the paper work and send that pitcher out there. MLB talking about having only 13 pitchers on roster next year and maybe 12 year after. Starters need to go longer. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Or when you have a bullpen that stinks. Put down all the paper work and send that pitcher out there. MLB talking about having only 13 pitchers on roster next year and maybe 12 year after. Starters need to go longer. 

Too many people have described “the bullpen” as if it’s one singular entity. 
 

It isn’t. 

[tdawg87]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Too many people have described “the bullpen” as if it’s one singular entity. 
 

It isn’t. 

Technically true.

[Angels 1961]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Too many people have described “the bullpen” as if it’s one singular entity. 
 

It isn’t. 

Yeah held lead last night, only gave up 4 runs. 

[Lou]

6 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Yeah held lead last night, only gave up 4 runs. 

That had nothing to do with what he said. 

Focus. 

[Angels 1961]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

That had nothing to do with what he said. 

Focus. 

That is your opinion, I said bullpen stinks and it does. 

[tdawg87]

Just now, Angels 1961 said:

That is your opinion, I said bullpen stinks and it does. 

No you said:

13 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Yeah held lead last night, only gave up 4 runs. 

Focus!

[Lou]

4 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

That is your opinion, I said bullpen stinks and it does. 

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Focus.

[Angels 1961]

3 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

No you said:

Focus!

All the writers that cover this team along with announcers cannot say anything negative about team. They do not want to upset the apple cart. 6 years of losing and they all run sacred. Softball questions to Maddon and Minasian in hiding. Moreno will never answer any questions. I am focused on a team with zero direction or any plan to change things. 

[Lou]

1 minute ago, Angels 1961 said:

All the writers that cover this team along with announcers cannot say anything negative about team. They do not want to upset the apple cart. 6 years of losing and they all run sacred. Softball questions to Maddon and Minasian in hiding. Moreno will never answer any questions. I am focused on a team with zero direction or any plan to change things. 

You are delusional.

[Blarg]

I don't tune into the game to hear the announcers vent thread the game. It's not their job to be critical of the team, just announce the game and give player profiles and provide intresting tidbits from the archives of baseball. If they can add in a little incentive to fans to stay tuned in and buy some tickets then they've done their job.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

That is your opinion, I said bullpen stinks and it does. 

The Angels stink so I guess Mike Trout stinks too. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

At this second — even after the last 3 games — Angels starters have a 4.99 ERA and relievers have a 4.92 ERA.

They’ve both been bad. So the notion that the Angels need to trust “the starters” more and “the relievers” less is faulty. 
 

(Also, the best pitcher is Ohtani, who has about a 2.60 ERA, so the ERA of all the other starters is well above 5. And if you want to blame that on inherited runners, that happens when the manager leaves the starter in to see what happens and then has to pull him after he gives up some baserunners.)
 

They need to look at each specific situation and determine who is best to get them through it.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Jeff Fletcher