Make a deal already

[Dtwncbad]

No, I cannot just passively accept rolling into 2020 without adding a front line starter than anchors the staff.

There are lots of pieces of information and we don’t really know what is true.  But I hope this front office isn’t passing on opportunities because they have to hold on to Marsh or Adams or Knowles.

I am specifically listing the outfielders not named Adell.  Adell is “special” so I get it.

But the other guys are simply high quality OF prospects.  You need to be willing to trade something of high quality to get high quality in return.

And the reality is there isn’t enough room on the Angels for all these outfielders.  The worst thing that could happen is there is an outfield vacancy and no prospect ready to promote into that spot.

That is not a tragedy.  You can get an outfielder if you need one.

No you don’t want to get fleeced.  But worse than getting fleeced is being too stubborn to pay a full fair price for the high quality starter you actually need now.

I am not going to be upset if the Angels trade a Marsh or Adams or Knowles in a deal for the right pitcher.  It’s what they need to do.

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

No, I cannot just passively accept rolling into 2020 without adding a front line starter than anchors the staff.

There are lots of pieces of information and we don’t really know what is true.  But I hope this front office isn’t passing on opportunities because they have to hold on to Marsh or Adams or Knowles.

I am specifically listing the outfielders not named Adell.  Adell is “special” so I get it.

But the other guys are simply high quality OF prospects.  You need to be willing to trade something of high quality to get high quality in return.

And the reality is there isn’t enough room on the Angels for all these outfielders.  The worst thing that could happen is there is an outfield vacancy and no prospect ready to promote into that spot.

That is not a tragedy.  You can get an outfielder if you need one.

No you don’t want to get fleeced.  But worse than getting fleeced is being too stubborn to pay a full fair price for the high quality starter you actually need now.

I am not going to be upset if the Angels trade a Marsh or Adams or Knowles in a deal for the right pitcher.  It’s what they need to do.

The problem is a “front line starter” may cost Marsh, Adams and Knowles. 

[totdprods]

If I had a frontline starter on the market, I’d be asking about Adell every single time Billy called. At the very least, Fletcher, Marsh, Sandoval or Canning. And after that, a number of guys like Rengifo, Thaiss, etc. packaged together. 

Every front office out there knows the Angels are desperate for pitching. Every front office out there knows the Twins, White Sox, Padres, and Dodgers are also looking for pitching and have better farms to shop from. They’re probably being asked for a ton as well. 

Asking prices will come down as winter continues. The early winter freneticism is making it really easy for sellers to ask high prices right now. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by totdprods

[Dtwncbad]

32 minutes ago, Stradling said:

The problem is a “front line starter” may cost Marsh, Adams and Knowles. 

"The problem. . ."?  No, the problem is the Angels need a front line starter.

The whole point I am making is it is a LARGER problem to not have the pitcher you need.  This isn't a roster in transition anymore.  It is built to win now.

I understand what you are saying.  But in a way you are showing exactly what I am trying to avoid:  Being too focused on the cost instead of being focused on what you get back.  If the market acts normally, frankly I would be absolutely thrilled to land the pitcher that comes here at the costs Marsh, Adams and Knowles.

That would probably be an absolute beast, which the Angels need far more than depth in minor league outfield prospects.

 

[eligrba]

7 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

"The problem. . ."?  No, the problem is the Angels need a front line starter.

The whole point I am making is it is a LARGER problem to not have the pitcher you need.  This isn't a roster in transition anymore.  It is built to win now.

I understand what you are saying.  But in a way you are showing exactly what I am trying to avoid:  Being too focused on the cost instead of being focused on what you get back.  If the market acts normally, frankly I would be absolutely thrilled to land the pitcher that comes here at the costs Marsh, Adams and Knowles.

That would probably be an absolute beast, which the Angels need far more than depth in minor league outfield prospects.

 

This is the approach Apple hopes for when they launch a new product.  Must have it, really need it, NOW.  The real deadline is the trading deadline.  Vernon Wells and GMJ are the results of impatience.

[Dtwncbad]

39 minutes ago, totdprods said:

If I had a frontline starter on the market, I’d be asking about Adell every single time Billy called. At the very least, Fletcher, Marsh, Sandoval or Canning. And after that, a number of guys like Rengifo, Thaiss, etc. packaged together. 

Every front office out there knows the Angels are desperate for pitching. Every front office out there knows the Twins, White Sox, Padres, and Dodgers are also looking for pitching and have better farms to shop from. They’re probably being asked for a ton as well. 

Asking prices will come down as winter continues. The early winter freneticism is making it really easy for sellers to ask high prices right now. 

All I am saying is if the Angels are not willing to trade any of these names or a combination of these names, then they are probably not actually going to solve the frontline starter issue.  It is not unreasonable or unexpected from other GMs that a team may have one name that is untouchable like Adell.  But if you want them to respect your untouchable status on one player, you better be open to moving other players, or that "extra" player.

I wouldn't think twice about moving Fletcher or Marsh or Rengifo or Thaiss.  I would very much LIKE to keep Canning because he can easily be seen as part of the pitching solution, so it makes it tough to move him off the roster than needs quality starters, so I would attempt to use other players other than Canning.

I honestly don't know what premium pitchers could be forced into being available if the Angels are willing to be very aggressive.  But I think they have to be willing to pay full, full retail price on a high quality starter.  And if the means it is some combination of Fletcher, Marsh, Knowles, Sandoval, Rengifo, Thaiss. . . . .then it is what it is.  Given the exact state of this franchise today and what it clearly needs, you do it.

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

"The problem. . ."?  No, the problem is the Angels need a front line starter.

The whole point I am making is it is a LARGER problem to not have the pitcher you need.  This isn't a roster in transition anymore.  It is built to win now.

I understand what you are saying.  But in a way you are showing exactly what I am trying to avoid:  Being too focused on the cost instead of being focused on what you get back.  If the market acts normally, frankly I would be absolutely thrilled to land the pitcher that comes here at the costs Marsh, Adams and Knowles.

That would probably be an absolute beast, which the Angels need far more than depth in minor league outfield prospects.

 

We disagree on this fundamentally.  You say we are built to win now, if you need 2 really good starters just to compete for a wild card then  you simply aren’t built to win now in my opinion.  If you have to gut your farm to get one of those 2 starters you aren’t built to win now.  If they had signed Cole and Rendon, then yea, at that point gut your farm to get that 2nd arm.  We could gut the farm and still fall short of 90 wins because our 2nd most reliable arm will be Bundy going into the season.  If Arte decides to take on more money then sure go ahead and sign Ryu and trade for Syndergaard.  We just have to hope we get 2018 of Syndergaard and 2019 Ryu and not 2019 Syndergaard and 2018 Ryu.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

All I am saying is if the Angels are not willing to trade any of these names or a combination of these names, then they are probably not actually going to solve the frontline starter issue.  It is not unreasonable or unexpected from other GMs that a team may have one name that is untouchable like Adell.  But if you want them to respect your untouchable status on one player, you better be open to moving other players, or that "extra" player.

I wouldn't think twice about moving Fletcher or Marsh or Rengifo or Thaiss.  I would very much LIKE to keep Canning because he can easily be seen as part of the pitching solution, so it makes it tough to move him off the roster than needs quality starters, so I would attempt to use other players other than Canning.

I honestly don't know what premium pitchers could be forced into being available if the Angels are willing to be very aggressive.  But I think they have to be willing to pay full, full retail price on a high quality starter.  And if the means it is some combination of Fletcher, Marsh, Knowles, Sandoval, Rengifo, Thaiss. . . . .then it is what it is.  Given the exact state of this franchise today and what it clearly needs, you do it.

Would you have traded Fletcher and Marsh for Kluber?  Or Marsh and another top ten for Kluber?  

[AngelsFaninGA]

No, we're fine

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, eligrba said:

This is the approach Apple hopes for when they launch a new product.  Must have it, really need it, NOW.  The real deadline is the trading deadline.  Vernon Wells and GMJ are the results of impatience.

Those guys are the results of impatience and lack of discipline and they were the wrong players to target.  None of my position has anything to do with being stupid and targeting the wrong player.  It has to do with recognizing that the right target (high quality pitching) has a high price, and being willing to pay the market price for what you actually need.

You want a Porsche, you pay for a Porsche.

[Stradling]

It probably helps to note which front line starters are available in a trade.  My guess is Price (who you really have to squint to see as a front line starter) Darvish if the Cubs decide to sell off expensive contracts, Syndergaard if you make the Mets a better team going into this season, which means it will cost major league talent and minor league talent, or possibly Adell and Fletcher, something along those lines.  Who else is available?  Maybe Sale?  Maybe Stroman?  Maybe Bauer, but probably not.  Front line starters aren’t being traded in December because if you have a front line starter to trade you probably feel like you can sneak in to the playoffs or you are looking for another front line starter so you can make a run in the playoffs.

[Docwaukee]

16 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Those guys are the results of impatience and lack of discipline and they were the wrong players to target.  None of my position has anything to do with being stupid and targeting the wrong player.  It has to do with recognizing that the right target (high quality pitching) has a high price, and being willing to pay the market price for what you actually need.

You want a Porsche, you pay for a Porsche.

so you are saying that right now, Eppler has a chance to get say German Marquez for Marsh and others but he's just not willing to pay?  

I think you are wrong.  I think what's happening is that he has a chance to get 2 years of Jon Gray or 1yr of Robbie Ray or the mediocre Matt Boyd and the asking price is Marsh and others.  

 

[AngelStew43]

The Red Sox would have to take nearly all of the 96 million dollars owed to Price back in trade to get one of Marsh, Adams or Knowles. 

Then, Eppler would have to think he's worth that risk.  I am not inside his head, but I don't think he does.  

If the Sox pay 60 million of the salary, they may get an Adams back in return, and maybe one other prospect in the 20-30 range.  

The innings on his arm and the injury history don't make him worth much more than that.

[totdprods]

45 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

All I am saying is if the Angels are not willing to trade any of these names or a combination of these names, then they are probably not actually going to solve the frontline starter issue.  It is not unreasonable or unexpected from other GMs that a team may have one name that is untouchable like Adell.  But if you want them to respect your untouchable status on one player, you better be open to moving other players, or that "extra" player.

I wouldn't think twice about moving Fletcher or Marsh or Rengifo or Thaiss.  I would very much LIKE to keep Canning because he can easily be seen as part of the pitching solution, so it makes it tough to move him off the roster than needs quality starters, so I would attempt to use other players other than Canning.

I honestly don't know what premium pitchers could be forced into being available if the Angels are willing to be very aggressive.  But I think they have to be willing to pay full, full retail price on a high quality starter.  And if the means it is some combination of Fletcher, Marsh, Knowles, Sandoval, Rengifo, Thaiss. . . . .then it is what it is.  Given the exact state of this franchise today and what it clearly needs, you do it.

And what I’m saying is there’s a very real chance teams are still asking for Adell for anything resembling a frontline SP. Or Marsh and a package that is way too much.

Those asks might come down in a couple weeks. Eppler knows he has a good stash to deal from and those players aren’t going to lose value over the winter. The pitchers teams are selling might. 

[Dtwncbad]

45 minutes ago, Stradling said:

We disagree on this fundamentally.  You say we are built to win now, if you need 2 really good starters just to compete for a wild card then  you simply aren’t built to win now in my opinion.  If you have to gut your farm to get one of those 2 starters you aren’t built to win now.  If they had signed Cole and Rendon, then yea, at that point gut your farm to get that 2nd arm.  We could gut the farm and still fall short of 90 wins because our 2nd most reliable arm will be Bundy going into the season.  If Arte decides to take on more money then sure go ahead and sign Ryu and trade for Syndergaard.  We just have to hope we get 2018 of Syndergaard and 2019 Ryu and not 2019 Syndergaard and 2018 Ryu.  

Funny.  I think if they had landed Cole and Rendon, then that would be a good enough team at that point to refuse to “gut the farm.”

[yk9001]

Man, you guys take this offseason stuff seriously.

[Dtwncbad]

46 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Would you have traded Fletcher and Marsh for Kluber?  Or Marsh and another top ten for Kluber?  

A useless hypothetical considering Kluber went for a package less than that.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Funny.  I think if they had landed Cole and Rendon, then that would be a good enough team at that point to refuse to “gut the farm.”

Well if you think heading in to a season with Cole and Bundy as your only two guys you can count on to pitch deep into games as being a recipe for a successful season, I am not sure where to take this conversation.  

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

A useless hypothetical considering Kluber went for a package less than that.

Not at all since it has been reported they asked for Marsh and another top ten prospect.  

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

A useless hypothetical considering Kluber went for a package less than that.

Also, quite funny you decide to mention a useless hypothetical when you created a thread about being willing to trade top prospects for hypothetical top of the rotation starters.

[CanadianHalo]

I’ve always said this team will need to spend their way out of this mess. Arte has never wanted to go the full blown rebuild route and with Trout locked up and in his prime and having just signed Rendon the time to do it is this offseason. 

Yes, Keuchel isn’t going to be winning any Cy Young awards in the future but he’s a solid consistent starter. Castellanos is 27 and really broke out once he got away from Detroit whose home ballpark isn’t a good fit for him. 

Like @totdprods has said there is value there for us in signing Castellanos. Castellanos allows us to trade away some of other prospects we’d no longer need in the immediate future. 

I just don’t see a scenario where this team is a serious contender this season without spending more money. Right now Eppler has backed himself into a corner and has no leverage in any trade scenario. As mentioned above most teams I’m sure are asking for Marsh. Why wouldn’t they? 

[Mark PT]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

"The problem. . ."?  No, the problem is the Angels need a front line starter.

The whole point I am making is it is a LARGER problem to not have the pitcher you need.  This isn't a roster in transition anymore.  It is built to win now.

I understand what you are saying.  But in a way you are showing exactly what I am trying to avoid:  Being too focused on the cost instead of being focused on what you get back.  If the market acts normally, frankly I would be absolutely thrilled to land the pitcher that comes here at the costs Marsh, Adams and Knowles.

That would probably be an absolute beast, which the Angels need far more than depth in minor league outfield prospects.

 

The Angels are not going to win now with this staff unless Ohtani comes back to ace form (if he was ever this), Canning and Suarez somehow develp into solid 2-3, Heaney somehow pitches better than he ever has (consistency), and we add a good 2-3 starter.

[hangin n wangin]

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, eligrba said:

This is the approach Apple hopes for when they launch a new product.  Must have it, really need it, NOW.  The real deadline is the trading deadline.  Vernon Wells and GMJ are the results of impatience.

Agreed, except that really the deadline is probably late January/early February, as it's better to have that acquisition(s) be here when ST starts.

It's becoming more apparent that 2020's first round pick needs to be used on a college pitcher, with so many first round potentials available for the draft.    

Edited December 17, 2019 by Angel Oracle

[angelsnationtalk]

TOTALLY agree we need a front line starter. BUT hear me out..

The Angels need to become a dynasty team and not go "win now for this year". How do they do that? They keep Adell, Marsh and Canning. They can more than likely afford to sign Keuchel AND trade for someone like Boyd who has been rumored with the Angels today. No, it doesn't get us an "Ace", but it completely reshapes our typical injured rotation and gives us a great amount of depth should any injury happen. The Angels can definitely get themselves to the playoffs with the offense they have and by adding Keuchel and one of Jon Gray of Boyd. 

That's why I think Eppler is holding off on shopping Marsh right away. Marsh has the bat from the left side that Eppler loves and he's the next piece once Upton falls apart again.