Teams checking in on Dee Gordon

[ukyah]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

I would expand it to Bour and Gordon. 

Trade Cowart, Fletcher, Thaiss and Middleton. 

[Second Base]

37 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

speed is especially important to someone who doesn't walk.  A big part of Gordon's value is his batting avg.  In his 'breakout' PED induced season, his babip was .383.  This year it's .341.  He's literally a one tool player.  

I wouldn't say that.  Yeah, speed is his primary tool.  But if he were a prospect, I'd tell you he has a good hit tool and glove as well.  More like a 3-tool player. 

The part where people get confused is the belief that you have to be a "5-tool" player to be a star in this league.  Not the case.  Look at Trout, look at Judge, Stanton, Machado, Harper.  Those are all less than "5-tool" players.

Gordon hasn't popped positive this year, so he's either clean or using something that isn't detectable or they aren't testing for.  So it's safe to assume that his .295 BA is a pretty good lock to remain where it is, because his career BA is .290.  The .342 OBP is evident that he's become a smarter, or at least more selective hitter than he was in his youth.  His RBBIP suggests his average is right around where it should be.

So for the next four years, if we're looking historically on what a player of his type will do, we actually have a decent idea, as you're getting ages 30-33 season.  His defense is very good, among the best at his position.  That'll likely slip a little bit, but even if it does, he'll still be a good defender.  The batting average has no reason whatsoever to get worse.  In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it got better, lots of guys become better hitters in their 30's.  The OBP will likely remain around .330 or .340, nothing particularly special.  The speed, that'll remain solid for at least the next two years.  He'll probably end up around 60.  The third year at age 32, I think it'll probably drop down to 30-40.  Age 33, there's a 50% chance it falls all the cliff like it did for Vince Coleman, Kenny Lofton and Dave Roberts at that age and he drops down to 15.  He'll still probably hit .290 and be a good defender, he just won't be elite anymore. 

So yeah, I think Dee Gordon is good for the length of his contract while he's making an average of 13 million a year or so.  Not bad at all really. 

[VariousCrap]

At this point, I think the Angels should just bring up Cowart and let him play 2B for the rest of the season.

[zenmaster]

1. Prior PED use

2. Would cost our newly rejuvenated farm a few good prospects

3. Would help us marginally at best

4. We are probably out of it anyways

What's not to like?

[eligrba]

I think the Angels get better by keeping and developing the high prospects that could be traded for Dee Gorden.

[eligrba]

7 hours ago, VariousCrap said:

At this point, I think the Angels should just bring up Cowart and let him play 2B for the rest of the season.

Angels are hesitant because he might only hit .230 and only play solid defense and not great defense.

This is the best opportunity for the Angels to develop Cowart letting play at the major league level. Cowart's playing time should come at the expense of Espinosa and Pennington.

[nando714]

17 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Angels are hesitant because he might only hit .230 and only play solid defense and not great defense.

This is the best opportunity for the Angels to develop Cowart letting play at the major league level. Cowart's playing time should come at the expense of Espinosa and Pennington.

How much more developing does Cowart need? He's 25 , 7th year in the minors. He either has it or does not. 

I say we go a different route

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, nando714 said:

How much more developing does Cowart need? He's 25 , 7th year in the minors. He either has it or does not. 

I say we go a different route

My frustration is we don't know if he has it or not.  He's had less than 150 at bats over the course of three seasons.  

[halomatt]

I don't believe the Angels waste what few bullets they have on Dee (Fricken) Gordon. It's more important to focus on guys that will still be productive members of this team in three years.  This team is cooked for the year.  Trade off what talent there is for some young guys that will be controllable assets for six years at low salary. 

[eligrba]

6 minutes ago, nando714 said:

How much more developing does Cowart need? He's 25 , 7th year in the minors. He either has it or does not. 

I say we go a different route

Cowart may not be the answer but only an improvement over what the Angels currently have playing.  I agree with a different route, but I am not sure that the Gorden route is much different than the Cowart route except that Gorden would cost prospects.....which only makes sense for long term solutions like Simmons.

[Glen]

Remember how we let go of Figgins at just about the exact right time?  Seems to me that's what the Marlins are doing with Gordon.

Let's not be the Mariners.

[nando714]

38 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Cowart may not be the answer but only an improvement over what the Angels currently have playing.  I agree with a different route, but I am not sure that the Gorden route is much different than the Cowart route except that Gorden would cost prospects.....which only makes sense for long term solutions like Simmons.

Most of us here might be an improvement 

[nando714]

Also what if we save our ammo

Neil Walker is a going to be a FA

[HALOS23]

Dee Gordon is worlds better than what we currently have at 2nd base or have had in quite some time. I'd take him for fringe prospects if they are truly looking for salary relief. 

Its all about the Trout window. 

[Erstad Grit]

Can we get him and transplant his feet to pujols? 

Seriously,  if they took a few of our bad smaller contracts like Espinosa and valbuena it could work for both teams. Marlins cut payroll and we get a 2b who would help.  Im not sure if gordon would or wouldn't  get claimed going through waivers.  Toss up. 

[Angel Oracle]

Gordon could then allow Cowart to focus on 3B, which removes the need to sign Moose and use that money on Gordon PLUS partly towards a 1B.

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, nando714 said:

Also what if we save our ammo

Neil Walker is a going to be a FA

Even though his past two seasons (2016 and now) have produced his best OPS seasons (.820s) after leaving Pittsburgh, his health is a concern in having missed some 75 games over the past 1.5 seasons.   He also turns 32 in September, and would be a rental.     No more rentals, unless very little is traded back.    No more Grienke/Segura trades

Gordon is only 29, with either 3 or 4 years club control.   He has improved his BA greatly (.333 in 2015, .295 so far in 2017), which admittedly largely drives his OBP.  He, Maybin, and Trout as 1-2-3 would drive pitchers and catchers crazy on the bases.

[Chuck]

1 minute ago, Angel Oracle said:

Even though his past two seasons (2016 and now) have produced his best OPS seasons (.820s) after leaving Pittsburgh, his health is a concern in having missed some 75 games over the past 1.5 seasons.   He also turns 32 in September, and would be a rental.     No more rentals, unless very little is traded back.    No more Grienke/Segura trades

Gordon is only 29, with either 3 or 4 years club control.   He has improved his BA greatly (.333 in 2015, .295 so far in 2017), which admittedly largely drives his OBP.  He, Maybin, and Trout as 1-2-3 would drive pitchers and catchers crazy on the bases.

Only to have Pujols GIDP batting cleanup.

Honestly, I'm not a Pujols basher but he needs to be moved down in the order once Trout comes back.This is why I'm hoping we can somehow get the big lefty bat as well, or just him in a trade with the Marlins. He immediately goes to the cleanup spot, Escobar 5th and Pujols 6th. 

[CanadianHalo]

4 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Only to have Pujols GIDP batting cleanup.

Honestly, I'm not a Pujols basher but he needs to be moved down in the order once Trout comes back.This is why I'm hoping we can somehow get the big lefty bat as well, or just him in a trade with the Marlins. He immediately goes to the cleanup spot, Escobar 5th and Pujols 6th. 

Why would the Marlins want a 30 million dollar DH in a non DH league?

If Pujols still played 1st it'd sure be nice to swap Pujols for Stanton but those days are over.

[nando714]

9 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Even though his past two seasons (2016 and now) have produced his best OPS seasons (.820s) after leaving Pittsburgh, his health is a concern in having missed some 75 games over the past 1.5 seasons.   He also turns 32 in September, and would be a rental.     No more rentals, unless very little is traded back.    No more Grienke/Segura trades

Gordon is only 29, with either 3 or 4 years club control.   He has improved his BA greatly (.333 in 2015, .295 so far in 2017), which admittedly largely drives his OBP.  He, Maybin, and Trout as 1-2-3 would drive pitchers and catchers crazy on the bases.

I meant signing him as a FA not trading anyone for him

2/16m-20m? He's making 17m this year off a QO

[Glen]

19 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Only to have Pujols GIDP batting cleanup.

Honestly, I'm not a Pujols basher but he needs to be moved down in the order once Trout comes back.This is why I'm hoping we can somehow get the big lefty bat as well, or just him in a trade with the Marlins. He immediately goes to the cleanup spot, Escobar 5th and Pujols 6th. 

Pujols won't hit 6th this year regardless of who the Angels pick up.

[Chuck]

24 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Why would the Marlins want a 30 million dollar DH in a non DH league?

If Pujols still played 1st it'd sure be nice to swap Pujols for Stanton but those days are over.

I was referring to Justin Bour.

 

[Angel Oracle]

5 hours ago, Glen said:

Remember how we let go of Figgins at just about the exact right time?  Seems to me that's what the Marlins are doing with Gordon.

Let's not be the Mariners.

Figgins was already 32 his first season away from Anaheim, plus the M's moved him to a position he didn't like.   Gordon is only 29 and only under firm contract through 2020 (age 32 season) with the 2021 team option.  Plus he isn't moving from 2B when coming here, and having rock solid BAs in 2 of the past 3 seasons.  

[totdprods]

I understand all the concerns with Dee - there's definite worry about a player nearing 30 who relies heavily on speed and contact - but the cost isn't high, he fills a position that's been a wasteland for a few years, and he immediately provides us an internal option at lead-off, something we don't have under contract past '18, and checks off a big offseason need in advance. Sure, there's risk, but the value he provides by securing a position in advance and offering us a lot of flexibility in negotiations with Maybin, Escobar, Cain, etc., is well worth it. 

[ukyah]

1 hour ago, totdprods said:

I understand all the concerns with Dee - there's definite worry about a player nearing 30 who relies heavily on speed and contact - but the cost isn't high, he fills a position that's been a wasteland for a few years, and he immediately provides us an internal option at lead-off, something we don't have under contract past '18, and checks off a big offseason need in advance. Sure, there's risk, but the value he provides by securing a position in advance and offering us a lot of flexibility in negotiations with Maybin, Escobar, Cain, etc., is well worth it. 

i'll show you our negotiations with escobar: