Cowart

[totdprods]

Fully aware this is a very broad generalization and it is very ripe to be picked apart.

Jered Weaver has given us:
154 IP, roughly 5.2 IP per game, and an ERA of 5.30. In 27 starts, he has offered up 11 quality starts - second on the pitching staff behind Matt - 41% of his appearances. 
For what it's worth, he threw 26 GS last year and offered up 12 QS, so no real drop-off from last year to this year.

Nick Tropeano (the good), Jhoulys Chacin (the mostly bad), Tyler Skaggs, and Tim Lincecum (the ugly) have given us:
264 IP, roughly 6.1 IP per game, and an ERA of 5.30. Over 43 starts, they've delivered 10 quality starts. Roughly 23% of their starts. 

Hector gave us about 40% QS; 9 in 22 GS, and gave us, on average, 5.1 IP per game.
Shoemaker gave us about 60% QS; 16 in 27 GS, averaging 6 IP per game. 

Jered Weaver is no longer a good pitcher. He's pretty bad. When he gets bombed, he gets absolutely destroyed. He can hardly strike anyone out, he gives up a disturbing amount of hits, and there isn't a single sign of anything trending positively for him. But somehow - be it Scioscia giving him a long leash, pure luck of the baseball gods smiling upon him for being a class act, or sheer tenacity - he has been able to go out on the mound and give us more starts of 6+IP and 3 or less runs than anyone not named Matt Shoemaker on this staff.

I'm not one to live purely off the old-school counting stats, but it still shows something to me that Weave manages to keep us in the game more than most have this year.
There will be stats that show how awful he is, how this is unsustainably bad, how he's approaching historically single-season lows, but Jered Weaver's entire career - even when he was terrific - went against the stat projections. There's something unquantifiable about him, and that's what makes him special and his place in Angels lore secure.

Given that 2017 is likely a lost battle, I'm not too concerned if he sucks 60% of the time. That's in line with expectations for next year's squad. 
But if he's able to gut out some quality starts, eat some innings when he's getting bombed or fluking into one of his 6 IP, 2 ER starts, he's preserving some innings from our young arms and giving us a chance to develop our lotto-ticket youngsters at the org's pace rather than throwing them into the rotation and expecting everyone to develop successfully in the bigs on a struggling staff. To me, that flexibility to develop guys like Meyer, Banuelos, O'Grady, Scribner, O-Holtz, McGowin is worth throwing Weaver a couple million and the first two months of the year. The lack of our starters going deep this year is one of the reasons our pitching staff has seen so many injuries, so why risk that again? All we need to do next year is wait and tread water. Get our SPs healthy, don't rush anybody, don't overwork anybody. Roll the dice on some starters and Marte/Choi/Ortega level bats, toy around with Guerra/Ramirez/Valdez relievers, and hope it all coalesces in 2018. We don't need to spend big dough on Hellickson, Nova, Fister types. We could, and I'd be okay with that and it would be better than Weaver, but I don't feel like we have to.
 

[totdprods]

I still think Kaleb's glove is more than enough to carry him into 2017 pulling a lot of playing time at 2B, with the occasional start at 3B, SS, 1B, and LF. 
Even with what he's shown offensively so far, he still isn't too far off what Johnny G, Petit, and Pennington are doing. 

Worst case scenario he'd be a capable UT IF early next season, and hopefully as this September or next season goes on, he adjusts and finds his stroke. As many have said, even if he can scrape out something as low as a .250/.300/.375 line he'd be a valuable player with his glove, and that still seems reachable. He just needs to start showing some patience at the plate.

[Angelsjunky]

Re-signing Weaver for a year at $4-5M is a very low-risk move. In fact, there really is no harm to it and, as totdprods said, it gives the team extra insurance and depth. Yes, he sucks but it isn't like he's the weak link in an otherwise playoff-bound squad. Clearly Richards, Skaggs, and Shoemaker are all better and have spots ahead of him. But then Ober, Banny, Meyer etc all have to earn their starts ahead of Jered. If they do, Jered can be a player-coach and mop-up. But again, as long as Jered realizes that might be his destiny.

But I admit to being a bit sentimental. Unlike Lackey, we're going to miss him when he's gone.

[totdprods]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

Re-signing Weaver for a year at $4-5M is a very low-risk move. In fact, there really is no harm to it and, as totdprods said, it gives the team extra insurance and depth. Yes, he sucks but it isn't like he's the weak link in an otherwise playoff-bound squad. Clearly Richards, Skaggs, and Shoemaker are all better and have spots ahead of him. But then Ober, Banny, Meyer etc all have to earn their starts ahead of Jered. If they do, Jered can be a player-coach and mop-up. But again, as long as Jered realizes that might be his destiny.

But I admit to being a bit sentimental. Unlike Lackey, we're going to miss him when he's gone.

When it comes to Weaver, I can't see either him or Arte balking at whatever price is deemed reasonable between both parties. He's earned it after the deal he gave the club, and he isn't going to rape us over a potential 2017 deal. If he returns, it will be for a very minimal amount of money. He is well aware how awful he has been and I don't think it would take much pressure from the org or self-realization for him to retire early into next season if it is clear he is blocking imminent talent. We just don't have that this year, and we definitely don't have that for next year - yet.

[Blarg]

Signing Weaver to pitch next year is not a low risk move, it is a stupid one. He's done. 

[Oz27]

31 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Re-signing Weaver for a year at $4-5M is a very low-risk move. In fact, there really is no harm to it

I can't agree with this. It's a no upside move and a complete waste of $4-5 million, which could be the cost of a decent bullpen piece or a buy-low starter who actually has potential to bounce back. The harm is he is below replacement level and is getting worse at a rapid rate. We can and should do better and the only argument in favor of bringing him back in sentiment.

[mulwin444]

Yeah, unless he can magically touch 87/88 mph on his fastball again, there would be no way I'd offer him any contract.  He's done 

[m0nkey]

Someone change the thread title from Cowart to Weaver

[Dick B Back]

As much as Weaver has done for the Halos, I think he deserves his own thread, not just dumped in Cowart's.

Carry on.

[mulwin444]

As far as Cowart goes, the guy can pick it at several positions and showed he could in AAA.  It's worth giving him a long look before relegating him to bust territory 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Signing Weaver to pitch next year is not a low risk move, it is a stupid one. He's done. 

Name five starters we have clearly better?

I don't think Meyer, Ober???....Chacin and Lincecum are clear cut better.

Plus Richards and Shoe will be coming from major injuries

 

I agree he sucks but who is better?

[Second Base]

29 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Name five starters we have clearly better?

I don't think Meyer, Ober???....Chacin and Lincecum are clear cut better.

Plus Richards and Shoe will be coming from major injuries

 

I agree he sucks but who is better?

Honestly?  Richards, Shoe, Skaggs, Nolasco, Meyer, Smith for sure.....Banuelos, O'Grady possibly.  Even if you don't count Richards and Shoemaker because of their injuries this year (yet expected clean bill of health to begin next year), there's still at minimum, five starters that are better than Weaver.

But more importantly (at least to me), replacing Weaver with a younger, lower cost alternative that actually has upside makes sense for the fiscal standing of this organization.  If they don't think 2017 is the year we compete then why not let the kids take a chance, we might actually find something valuable.  And even if we do want to compete in 2017, I don't think Weaver's five and a half ERA classifies as competitive.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I'm not against bringing weaver back, exactly because the post above. A cheap deal and a number 5 starter who will be bad a lot, but who cares, we're not going to contend and someone has to throw the ball.

That said, I'm not sure weaver would be interested. In all honesty, he may very well know his arm is gone, and a few million to be on the road over the summer and away from the family might not be that enticing to him. If his arm was still there, sure, he's a bulldog. But he likely could be over the bad starts....especially for the low dollar amount were saying would be a no biggie move.

[Oz27]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

Name five starters we have clearly better?

I don't think Meyer, Ober???....Chacin and Lincecum are clear cut better.

Plus Richards and Shoe will be coming from major injuries

 

I agree he sucks but who is better?

Free agency exists, you know? You can also get guys off waivers and make low-cost trades. Filling out a rotation with guys better than Weaver isn't challenging.

[tomsred]

Cowart is a little perplexing to me.  I really like the guy's defense (a lot).  I like his demeanor, athletic ability, and his determination.  However, I get real concerned about his ability to adjust at the plate.  He's on the verge of hitting just not quite enough, and hasn't learned how to quite layoff bad pitches enough to get a few walks.  I can see him going out of this year hitting something like .215 with a .230 OBP.  He's still pretty young, so you can't write him off and at times he seems really close to turning a corner and sticking up here.  I guess with all the other broken pieces on this team we can let it ride for now, but I really hope our patience doesn't get misplaced.

 

[tomsred]

45 minutes ago, Oz27 said:

Free agency exists, you know? You can also get guys off waivers and make low-cost trades. Filling out a rotation with guys better than Weaver isn't challenging.

But you can still waste a lot of money suffering through failed attempts with pitchers that fall apart.  The only thing with Weaver is that you probably know exactly what you are going to get, and there won't be any upside.  I can appreciate what he has done for the organization, but it is painful to watch him struggle.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

5 hours ago, hangin n wangin said:

I also object. He's beyond a passable starter.

I appreciate everything Weaver has done for this club over the years, but his contract is up and he just doesn't have it any more. It's time he retired and spent time with his family. Maybe coach somewhere if he wants, but he is done as a starter.

So thanks for the memories

 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

2 hours ago, stormngt said:

Name five starters we have clearly better?

I don't think Meyer, Ober???....Chacin and Lincecum are clear cut better.

Plus Richards and Shoe will be coming from major injuries

 

I agree he sucks but who is better?

Richards, and Shoemaker both may be coming off injuries but have a better shot at being good next season than Weaver. Skaggs, Meyer, and Nolasco, all will be better than Weaver. Weaver is done period.

[Billy_Ball]

Is it still too late to convert Cowart and his 96 mph fastball to pitching? 

Just kidding, Ace.

Scioscia needs to give him ABs every game for the rest of the season and give a nice look at him next spring, then go from there.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, hangin n wangin said:

He has been one of the absolute worst pitchers in the game this year and he isn't getting better with age. 4-5 million for Weaver is an absolute joke when you could get a minor league guy to give you a 5.70 ERA for the league minimum.

Do we have any minor leaguers to call up and do that? And I'm not asking that to argue, but (without following our minors like some of you guys), my understanding is that we're really scraping the barrel as is.

Whatever we can call up (or sign off waivers, independent league, etc), isn't only going to have to replace weaver, but the inevitable injury next year as well.

I'm all for signing starters this winter, better guys than weaver. But I think if we bargain shop again, we're only looking at getting another weaver type for the same money people are proposing on here.

Personally, I don't think weaver is going to be interested. I think he's pitching right now to honor his contract, but I doubt the idea of going out next year, struggling again on likely another bad team isn't really going to be worth his time (with a family now) for a few million (as funny as that sounds).

Let's say it was one of us, and we made 50K this year at our job we hate, but the house was paid off. Would you want to go back to work next month for 5K, still hating the job?

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

And to clarify, I'm not at all suggesting he hates baseball. He's a bulldog and I'm sure doesn't want to retire. But I'm sure he knows he's lost it, and isn't happy going out there and getting hit. His buddy haren I'm sure has had some wisdom talks with him about life after.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Ace-Of-Diamonds said:

Richards, and Shoemaker both may be coming off injuries but have a better shot at being good next season than Weaver. Skaggs, Meyer, and Nolasco, all will be better than Weaver. Weaver is done period.

Shoe is a ?, because of the injury but he's also been a bit jekyll and hyde. Richard's I am not even counting on, as much as I hate to say it. I think not getting surgery is going to come back and bite, really hope I'm wrong.

[Blarg]

Kendrick is going to be a free agent after this season. The Angels will have to make a decision on whether to keep him or not. There might be competition for his services. 

[totdprods]

22 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

For sure. I didn't know that. I believe Chacin is going to be a free agent too. I would still go with the other guys listed over Weaver.

Chacin, Weaver, Lincecum, and Kendrick are all FA. 
Considering that Kendrick didn't get an opportunity this year with all of the injuries we had (granted, I think he was among them) either the Angels don't see him as much of a fit, or he won't see himself having much opportunity here next year. He's likely gone.

 

[Troll Daddy]

36 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Chacin, Weaver, Lincecum, and Kendrick are all FA. 
Considering that Kendrick didn't get an opportunity this year with all of the injuries we had (granted, I think he was among them) either the Angels don't see him as much of a fit, or he won't see himself having much opportunity here next year. He's likely gone.

 

Don't forget CJ Wilson. He's a free agent too next season. I like him over the pitchers you listed .