Cowart

[Blarg]

You had me until your plan B included Weaver.

[Troll Daddy]

According to one of our very own here ... Weaver has either a drinking or drug problem. I'm not necessarily buying into what he claims to be true ... but his health is a cause for concern. 

Weaver needs to go 'Joe Blanton' and rededicate himself to his craft if he's serious about pitching next season. Diet and exercise would be good starting point. 

[Inside Pitch]

12 hours ago, totdprods said:

Jason Dickson was pushed young and out of baseball shortly after.

Jason Dickson should have been allowed to sue Terry Collins.  

In 1996 he was leading the minors in IP.. was recalled in September and threw another 43 innings, piitching nearly 230 innings overall... He was then sent to winter ball and again led the league in IP.  He pitched so well the Angels wanted to get a good look at him in ST and they did as he led the Angels in IP during ST.  Dude made the team and then led the Angels in IP in 1997...   It's estimated he was allowed to pitch over 350 innings in a calendar year between 1996 and 1997....     Dickson shows up in ST of 98 -- complains of stiffness and is told to pitch more..    Stiffness continues, Terry Collins talks about his need to toughen up and put in more work as a major leaguer.  Dickson starts throwing harder, hitting the low mid 90s, balls are flattening out...  stiffness remains...   He struggles, gets sent down and only after pitching 150+ innings and after his shoulder is heard to be making a popping sound every time he throws a ball is he actually looked at....     

I will never forget the report that the Dr. upon looking in his shoulder said that it looked at though someone had set off a grenade in his arm -- that it was all masses of flesh and that you couldn't tell it was a human shoulder.  The last pitch Dickson had thrown was clocked at 96 MPH, the kid was working.  When asked for comment, Terry Collins response to the news was that as hard as he was throwing it didn't seem anything was wrong with him.   His having basically done everything but call the guy a pussy was glossed over and Jason Dickson was never the same.

There are many reasons I disliked Collins -- but his treatment of pitchers stands out as his greatest sin.  It's really no shock that Mets pitchers have been coming down with injuries left and right IMO, the best thing that can happen to those guys is Collins retires..   I wonder if he has learned anything or if he still thinks a pitcher saying he is hurting is signs the pitcher is a pussy.   Terry Collins was a c%nt.

[Inside Pitch]

9 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

totdprods, we're saying basically the same thing in different ways. Great minds and all, but I guess we're "stupid" for considering it.

Dumbasses....  

[totdprods]

22 minutes ago, Blarg said:

You had me until your plan B included Weaver.

Except he isn't my plan B. He isn't even a ranked plan. That's not at all how I'm viewing him. I'm lumping him in as an option in a certain pool of guys who we could 1) sign to one-year deals who have a history of 2) throwing a lot of innings. Bartolo Colon and RA Dickey are probably the only other FA pitchers who you can get on a one-year deal, who aren't coming off major injury (like Brett Anderson or CJ Wilson). They're light-years better than Jered Weaver. They'll also probably cost significantly more, and we're obviously trying to spend as little as possible. They could probably ask for an option or a second year, and in this FA market, might even get it. If we have the money for them, I'm 100% fine opting for them over Jered - on a one-year deal.

I'm just stating that Weaver represents the cheapest commitment (fewest years, less money) in the 'old durable innings-eater vet' category, should we feel that pool is the one we want to draw from to address the need for an innings-eater in the rotation. 

If I was GM, Plan A for me, if I had the money available, would be Ivan Nova. He already had TJ recently so you'd hope he's good for now, he has plenty of AL experience, and he's currently being revived by Searage in Pittsburgh who has a proven history of fixing pitchers now. Look at Liriano, Happ, Volquez. Extreme ground ball pitcher. That would fit very well with Simmons. Plan B would be Doug Fister, mostly because he's just about the only other decent FA SP, he has great AL West experience, and you may be able to get him on a shorter contract. Hellickson is interesting as he's pretty young still, but he wasn't that impressive in the AL (granted it was the AL East) but I don't think his ceiling is worth the contract he will get in relation to where he would slot into our rotation in 2018 and beyond. 

If those FA options were not feasible, I would explore dealing Carlos Perez and try to pull off the Conger for Trop/Perez deal, Part Two. Before '15 it was reported that Dipoto was receiving the most interest in Perez, and I'd imagine he still holds quite a bit of value. A pitching rich team (Cardinals? Yadier would make a great mentor) may be fine moving a SP prospect who is buried on their charts. Bandy has emerged to a point where I want him getting a lions share of catching duties next year, and Perez' value is limited if he's relegated to a back-up role. Give Bandy the playing time and sign a vet back-up until Ward is ready - or Schwarz if we keep drafting catchers  haha. I would also see what sort of MLB-ready top prospect or established young pitcher Calhoun would return too. Not anxious to move him, but if we could sign Reddick and Jon Jay and flip Calhoun+ for Trevor Bauer and Shawn Armstrong or something along those lines, it'd be another way to address the staff.

Weaver is way down the list for me. He's just cheap and little commitment, and that is where I see his only scrap of value.

[totdprods]

13 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Jason Dickson should have been allowed to sue Terry Collins.  

In 1996 he was leading the minors in IP.. was recalled in September and threw 43 innings..  Pitching nearly 230 innings overall... He was then sent to winter ball and again led the league in IP.  He pitched so well the Angels wanted to get a good look at him in ST and they did as he led the Angels in IP during ST.  Dude made the team and then led the Angels in IP in 1997...   It's estimated he was allowed to pitch over 350 innings in a calendar year between 1996 and 1997....     Dickson shows up in ST of 98 -- complains of stiffness and is told to pitch more..    Stiffness continues, Terry Collins talks about his need to toughen up and put in more work as a major leaguer.  Dickson starts throwing harder, hitting the low mid 90s, balls are flattening out...  stiffness remains...   He struggles, gets sent down and only after pitching 150+ innings and after his shoulder is heard to be making a popping sound every time he throws a ball is he actually looked at....     

I will never forget the report that the Dr. upon looking in his shoulder said that it looked at though someone had set off a grenade in his arm -- that it was all masses of flesh and that you couldn't tell it was a human shoulder.  The last pitch Dickson had thrown was clocked at 96 MPH, the kid was working.  When asked for comment, Terry Collins response to the news was that as hard as he was throwing it didn't seem anything was wrong with him.   His having basically done everything but call the guy a pussy was glossed over and Jason Dickson was never the same.

There are many reasons I disliked Collins -- but his treatment of pitchers stands out as his greatest sin.  It's really no shock that Mets pitchers have been coming down with injuries left and right IMO, the best thing that can happen to those guys is Collins retires..   I wonder if he has learned anything or if he still thinks a pitcher saying he is hurting is signs the pitcher is a pussy.   Terry Collins was a c%nt.

And now the Mets have Wheeler, Matz, DeGrom, and Harvey all hurting. All that vaunted Mets pitching depth.

We do not have the depth to absorb another year like 2016. Scotty preaches the possibility of Scribner, Long, O'Grady, Banuelos, Meyer, etc and I don't disagree with that! I want all of them to get opportunity.

But it would be recklessly insane to not bring in some durable vet presence to eat innings so we don't Jason Dickson all of these guys before our 2018-2020 return to glory.

Next year is pretty much sunk already, just get someone who is cheap and healthy enough to give us 150-200 innings. Nova, Fister, Bauer, Sabathia, Shields, Weaver, whoever. I'm just pointing out Weaver is the cheapest in terms of resources spent to acquire.

[Inside Pitch]

 

So -- when mulling over potential SP options -- has anyone considered that Hector Santiago might just end up being non-tendered?  With a ASG under his belt and the way they do arbitration comps -- it's not really hard to see him getting a raise from his 5 mil.   I dunno what the Twins are thinking moving forward -- but they might consider saving the money and going with someone from the farm system.

It would not shock me to see Santiago looking for a job this winter.  

[totdprods]

3 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

So -- when mulling over potential SP options -- has anyone considered that Hector Santiago might just end up being non-tendered?  With a ASG under his belt and the way they do arbitration comps -- it's not really hard to see him getting a raise from his 5 mil.   I dunno what the Twins are thinking moving forward -- but they might consider saving the money and going with someone from the farm system.

It would not shock me to see Santiago looking for a job this winter.  

I think the Twins would be able to trade him before they non-tender him, given the demand SP will be in this offseason. Very much like our Ervin Santana for Bannister trade to the Royals.

[AngelsLakersFan]

5 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

So -- when mulling over potential SP options -- has anyone considered that Hector Santiago might just end up being non-tendered?  With a ASG under his belt and the way they do arbitration comps -- it's not really hard to see him getting a raise from his 5 mil.   I dunno what the Twins are thinking moving forward -- but they might consider saving the money and going with someone from the farm system.

It would not shock me to see Santiago looking for a job this winter.  

I'd be surprised if they went through the trouble of trading for him if they were going to consider non-tendering him.

Also, with the nature of contracts these days, I can't see too many productive players getting non-tendered as is. Just about everyone is worth significantly more than their contract on the open market.

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

And now the Mets have Wheeler, Matz, DeGrom, and Harvey all hurting.

There have also been times this year where Syndergaard has seen big velocity dips..    Remember when Matt Harvey's toughness was being questioned when Boras talked about the Mets limiting his innings?  Scott Boras gets a lot of shit -- but he knew what he was saying when he said that...   And I bet you he remembers what happened to Jason Dickson.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I'd be surprised if they went through the trouble of trading for him if they were going to consider non-tendering him.

Also, with the nature of contracts these days, I can't see too many productive players getting non-tendered as is. Just about everyone is worth significantly more than their contract on the open market.

 

4 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I think the Twins would be able to trade him before they non-tender him, given the demand SP will be in this offseason. Very much like our Ervin Santana for Bannister trade to the Royals.

I don't disagree with either of you really -- but, the Twins are notoriously cheap...   With a new GM and the sort -- no telling what they might do.  

Anyway.. it really wouldnt surprise me if the only reason they made the trade was to rid themselves of Nolasco's contract and then rid themselves of Santiago's.

Also -- to everyone else.  Sorry for derailing the thread...  

 

[stormngt]

15 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

My worry about the rotation next year, and why I'm not opposed to bringing Weaver back for a few million--and with the understanding that a full-time gig is not guaranteed--is that the rotation is one question mark after the other. Consider that the following scenario is very possible:

Richards blows out his arm in the AFL or Spring Training, or starts hurting and decides to get TJS and misses the year. Shoemaker could never be the same. If you think that is hyperbolic, consider the language in this article--that he could "plausibly" be ready for Spring Training and will "hopefully" be able to return to "living normally." OK, let's say things don't go well or he just decides its not worth it. And then there's Skaggs, who is all over the place and could continue to struggle.

So we're left with a rotation of mediocre Nolasco, erratic Skaggs, and...Oberholtzer, Meyer, and Banuelos? OK, so it is another rebuilding year, but what about injuries? Why not give those guys a shot and if one gets injured then you have Weaver ready? I just can't get enthused with the driftwood we have in the high minors...Smith, McGowin, Kendrick, Kipper, O'Grady...one Rucinski after another. Long might be a decent #4-5 guy, but he's a year or more away. Barria, Rodriguez look intriguing in A ball, but they're at least 2-3 years away.

Assuming Weaver would even want this, the worst-case scenario is you spend a few million for Weaver to spot start and do mop-up duties. He's now worse than Chacin, plus he's...well, Jered Weaver.

I'm not attached to the idea, I just don't think it is "stupid"--not unless Richards and Shoemaker are 100% healthy and ready to go in ST.

 

My sentiments exactly.  I tried to same thing but you gave a much better argument.

[stormngt]

14 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Let's remember that the 'devil' is his agent. He will sign a incentive laden contract as a starter ... if he decides to keep the circus going. 

If anybody can find a team for Weaver ... it's Borass.

Maybe but since it's can there be any other team that "would be so stupid...that everyone should be fired"

If Boras gets Weaver a deal that guarantees a starting spot I say good luck to Weaver.  Buts if it's incentive laden without a guarantee to start I don't see it "stupid" as some say.

[Docwaukee]

If Weaver is brought back, I am quite sure MS would have him out there every 5th day.  

[stormngt]

17 hours ago, stormngt said:

First gets some comprehension I just said we don't have a lot of clearly better than Weaver.  You understand if player A isn't clearly better it player B doesn't mean I am saying B is better.  Not clearly better means just that.

Second if you are using Nolasco's career stats  thsn isnt it fair to compare those with Weavers career stats.  

Third, Oberholtzer has a grand total of 2 quality starts the last two years.  Weaver is tied with Santiago with 11.  Nolasco has one quality start with the last two years.  THAT IS WHY I SAID THEY ARE NOT CLEARLY BETTER THAN WEAVER!

I did say in my original post some stat geek would refute my arguments with some stats.  Sorry some stats don't tell the whole picture.  I know quality starts are not considered as a good indicator.  However despite WAR, FIP, or whatever Saber metrics numbers you throw at me if player A pitches into the 7th inning giving up 3 runs or less more often than player B than logical conclusion is player A is giving the team a better chance to win than player A.

Stat geeks can lose common sense as they crunch all their numbers.

And Yes I like Weaver a he'll of a lot more than Nolasco or Oberholtzer.  All three suck so If they are close to each other in will side with Weaver.

 

 

I have to make a correction.  I misread the stats as I was looking them up on my cell phone.  

in 2016 Nolasco has 13 quality starts this year to Weaver's  11.

doing the math, Nolasco has pitched a quality start 46% of the time to Weaver's 41%.  I do guess my loyalty to Weaver clouded by perception.  Although we are talking about a difference of 2 quality starts out of 28.  So They both suck!

Now going back two years Weaver has 23 quality starts in 53 starts.  That is a rate of 43.4%

Going back three years for Nolasco (he only  started 8 game in 2015 so I included 2014 starts)  has 24 quality starts in 65 games at 37%

So looking at those numbers I can still say Nolasco sucks worse that Weaver's. 

just in case someone says its unfair to add Nolasco 3 years and Weavers two years stats:

for past three seasons Weaver has 55 quality starts in 87 games at 61%

So I may have been wrong originally about how many quality starts Nolasco has had the last two years.  Comparing Weaver to Nolasco over the two year period, Weaver still is better. So that is why I base Nolasco as bad or worse than Weaver!  

And once again, if you have two pitchers equally as bad, I would prefer to go with Weaver.  Forgive me if my loyalty is bothering you.  

If the Angels add clearly better pitchers, than of course I would agree with the majority on here that Weaver must go.

 

 

[totdprods]

Whoa whoa whoa. No, Nolasco is in no way better than Weaver over the last two years. You can state accurately that he has thrown more quality starts, but that doesn't mean he is the better pitcher. 

And you can't say that number of quality starts makes a good pitcher. QS% shouldn't be discounted, and I think that is one stat that should speak of Weaver's remaining ability, but it's not a true measure of a pitcher's skill.

[Blarg]

There is a cutoff point to where you can't drag past stats up to support current production, mang. 

 

[Troll Daddy]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

If Weaver is brought back, I am quite sure MS would have him out there every 5th day.  

Of course Scioscia would start him ... I think that's the only reason Weaver would sign with any team if he continues pitching ... otherwise I think he retires. 

[totdprods]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

If Weaver is brought back, I am quite sure MS would have him out there every 5th day.  

IF Weaver is resigned, I'm sure he would be in the rotation. But Billy can DFA him after a few starts once some of the minor league arms have stabilized and look ready and Smith, Shoemaker, Meyer, and Banuelos can also get a few starts in to prove their health and durability looks alright. Hopefully by that point, at a minimum. Weaver has spun 7-10 starts and locked in 50-65 innings - even if they were shitty. Just buys some time and let's guys build up their pitch count and prove they're healthy or ready, and keeps the pen from having guys hit 40 games in the first 2 months.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, totdprods said:

Whoa whoa whoa. No, Nolasco is in no way better than Weaver over the last two years. You can state accurately that he has thrown more quality starts, but that doesn't mean he is the better pitcher. 

And you can't say that number of quality starts makes a good pitcher. QS% shouldn't be discounted, and I think that is one stat that should speak of Weaver's remaining ability, but it's not a true measure of a pitcher's skill.

I agree.  That's is what I am have been saying and that is what I have been taking criticism on.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

There is a cutoff point to where you can't drag past stats up to support current production, mang. 

 

Agreed but going back two years is not that far back

2 hours ago, hangin n wangin said:

Exactly. Nolasco is the better pitcher going forward.

You maybe right, but I don't think it is a foregone conclusion.  Over the mist recent years Weaver has done a better job of keeping their team in the game (quality starts).  Potential and talent may show otherwise but Weaver is a fierce competitor who manages to still win some games despite a little league fastball.

 

2 hours ago, Troll Daddy said:

Of course Scioscia would start him ... I think that's the only reason Weaver would sign with any team if he continues pitching ... otherwise I think he retires. 

Only Scioscia haters still believe the narrative that Scioscia will play below average veterans over more talented rookies.   

Proof:  Trout, Bourjos, Trumbo, Calhoun, Krod

[Oz27]

5 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

So -- when mulling over potential SP options -- has anyone considered that Hector Santiago might just end up being non-tendered?  With a ASG under his belt and the way they do arbitration comps -- it's not really hard to see him getting a raise from his 5 mil.   I dunno what the Twins are thinking moving forward -- but they might consider saving the money and going with someone from the farm system.

It would not shock me to see Santiago looking for a job this winter.  

I have thought of that, yeah. They would have to be cheap and stupid to do so ... but they're the Twins and they have a history of being cheap and stupid.

[DMVol]

5 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Anyway.. it really wouldnt surprise me if the only reason they made the trade was to rid themselves of Nolasco's contract and then rid themselves of Santiago's.

I would consider trading for him or signing him if they non-tender...wildly inconsistent but not the worst option out there....

[mulwin444]

Dude needs to contact Bob Tewksbury to see how he succeeded with an 84 MPH fastball

[stormngt]

27 minutes ago, hangin n wangin said:

Unless Weaver regains 8 MPH on his fastball, it is that far back. The last 2 years his velocity has decreased significantly and he has declined into an abysmal pitcher. So yea, unless that happens, he isn't going to get any better.

No argument he sucks now.  My premise we dont have much better.  If fully healthy Weaver shouldnt be anywhere near the mound.  However if th ings go wrong with Shoemaker, and Richards i can see Having Weaver ss sn asset.  

We could sign someone better through free agency.  Hiwever that will be expensive in years and dollars.  

I dont think Nolasco is any better and i have numbers to justify my viewpoint.  You say Weavers decline the last two years making Nolasco a safe bet.  But even with Nolasco that only gives us four healthy pitchers if Weaver and Shoe go down:  Skaggs, Meyer, Smith, and you say Nolasco.  Where is our depth?  And a previous poster made a ggod argument why you shouldn't rush the prospects.

You disagree fine. Like I said with my earlier, I knew I would catch flak for post.