How did the Angels farm system turn into garbage?

[JoJo26]

I just remember how Bill Stoneman refused to trade all those great young players (who really weren't that good: Mathis, MacPherson, etc...) but the Halo farm system was top notch.

Great young talent!

 

Still in the "Why did Arte sign Albert & Josh to stupid contracts" hangover...I've lost the reasoning of why we have nothing to bring up to replace players like Bedrock Jr. or CJ Cronic.

 

So - Can anyone tell me why we have the worst farm system in MLB?

 

I'll hang up and listen off the air...

[DoubleOffTheWall]

This team is gonna suck bad this year and the lack of young talent will finally screw them bad

[UndertheHalo]

Q: Why does the Angels farm suck

A: Because the Angels suck at drafting

[Frieri Meatball]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2015-international-spending-by-team/#QsshyhOlJesIV4ye.97

It doesn't help that the owner refuses to spend on international talent.

[ukyah]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2015-international-spending-by-team/#QsshyhOlJesIV4ye.97

It doesn't help that the owner refuses to spend on international talent.

 

 

pitiful.

[gurn67]

Give me hundreds of young, hungry and/or talented Dominicans, Japanese & Cubans over 1 over the hill Dominican and 1 cokehead anyday. Just taking a portion of the $365,000,000+ spent on those two and spending it on international talent would have improved the situation dramatically.

[Docwaukee]

we've been through this.  

 

It's multi-factorial.  It boils down to a lack of resources allocated to scouting and player development.  It's the difference between the long term investment that the fans seen immediately vs. the one they don't.  The latter is better for the team long term, but the former keeps them in the seats.  

 

On top of it, the path of how to acquire young players was chosen as a result of this philosophy, and it failed miserably.  The high floor college player method sucked.  But it's a chicken and egg argument.  Did we go this route because the org resources just weren't there to properly scout so a more thorough approach could be undertaken?  Maybe.  

 

But they would likely have been better off drafting from a ranking of players obtained from outside resources.

 

Since we have no means of obtaining talent except through the draft, Eppler's biggest make or break will be in this area.  If he has been able to convince Arte of what needs to be done, then we have a shot. 

 

If it's business as usual, we are on the verge of an ice age.  

[NrM]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2015-international-spending-by-team/#QsshyhOlJesIV4ye.97

It doesn't help that the owner refuses to spend on international talent.

embarrassing. 

[Billy_Ball]

It started when they fired Eddie Bane.  The guy who drafted Trout, Grichuk, Skaggs and Richards in 2009.

[Angel Oracle]

Arte Moreno for years seemingly ran the team like his billboard business, immediate bang for the buck with NO eye towards a long term future.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Arte Moreno for years seemingly ran the team like his billboard business, immediate bang for the buck with NO eye towards a long term future.

to a point. But remember he was owner when the next gen kids like wood, kotch, aybar etc were in the minors. I know he was really high on wood. Jumped on morales, etc.

I really dont know what changed. He went from seemingly being totally committed (within reason) to suddenly gunshy. I really think his plan was to finally get a ring (in 12) and sell. Now that the teams in a mess (for the most part), i think hes just kind of on the fence. He wants to win, but doesnt want to spend. And its almost ignorant bliss ignoring the state of the farm.

[Chuck]

What a fresh topic!

I'm glad somebody brought this up for once.

[eaterfan]

I just remember how Bill Stoneman refused to trade all those great young players (who really weren't that good: Mathis, MacPherson, etc...) but the Halo farm system was top notch.

Great young talent!

 

Still in the "Why did Arte sign Albert & Josh to stupid contracts" hangover...I've lost the reasoning of why we have nothing to bring up to replace players like Bedrock Jr. or CJ Cronic.

 

So - Can anyone tell me why we have the worst farm system in MLB?

 

I'll hang up and listen off the air...

 

Can we stop it with the criticism that the system that Stoneman built wasn't very good? There were busts like McPherson, Wood, and Mathis. But that system produced so many guys who made all-star games and were long time starters. It never produced a superstar (except Weaver if you count him). But how many of the guys in the system from 2004-2007 are still productive major leaguers a decade later?

 

Yes, Stoneman would have been better off trading the guys who would have been busts but it's tough to tell who will bust and who won't. It's a numbers game with any system and the Angels had wave after wave of good prospects. We held onto some of that depth knowing some of the prospects wouldn't work out. When guys like Wood and Mathis busted we still had Aybar and Napoli. Imagine if we had traded those guys for one year rentals?

[eligrba]

The question to ask is How do the Angels get out of this situation?

 

While free falling, it is not a productive use of time and energy to ponder how it happened at that moment.

[zenmaster]

Maybe we should go the 76ers route?

[JoJo26]

What a fresh topic!

I'm glad somebody brought this up for once.

 

It's a new year Chuck! 

 

 

"It started when they fired Eddie Bane.  The guy who drafted Trout, Grichuk, Skaggs and Richards in 2009."

 

This is what slipped my mind...BANE....That was the start of the slide.

Freaking stupid....

 

"It doesn't help that the owner refuses to spend on international talent. "

 

When the Oakland freakin' A's spend more than you in ANYTHING....you're an idiot...

Edited April 9, 2016 by JoJo26

[Angelsjunky]

Doc handled much of it, but I'll add in a few things, with a bit of a timeline.

 

As you said, Stoneman was notorious for holding onto his prospects. The problem was, the "great" Angels farm of the early to mid 00s ended up being quite disappointing. Think of all of the top prospects who ended up failing or being disappointing: Brandon Wood, Dallas McPherson, Jeff Mathis, Casey Kotchman. Even some of the "successes" were a bit disappointing, like Howie Kendrick--the perennial "future batting champion" (.360 minor league BA).

 

So the so-called great Angels farm wasn't that great to begin with. Pretty good, but not great.

 

So then we have the problem of drafting. The 2009 was great, the 2010 was terrible. Smart teams are able to leverage losing their players to free agency for draft pick compensation. The Angels did this after losing Lackey, Figgins, etc, after 2009, then squandered five first round picks on: Kaleb Cowart, Cam Bedrosian, Chevy Clarke, Taylor Lindsey, and Ryan Bolden (RIP). People love Bane for the 2009 draft that saw the Angels pick Trout, Grichuk, Skaggs, Richards, and Corbin, but he was also responsible for the doozy that was 2010.

 

Anyhow, after several years of shitty drafting, the drafting strategy changed from high upside high school players to low-ceiling, high-floor college players. That hasn't worked out well either. As Doc said, it looks like the problem is that the Angels just aren't that good at scouting, and maybe not at development either.

 

And then there's international scouting, or the lack thereof. After Kendrys Morales the Angels have done basically nothing until...Roberto Baldoquin? Also, Dipoto wasn't afraid to trade prospects.

 

The bottom line is that they just haven't drafted well from 2010 on. OK, they had Calhoun in 2010. 2011 saw Cron and Bandy, who should help the team sometime soon. Not much has come from 2012 (Mike Morin, RJ Alvarez) and 2013 looks like a total dud...Hunter Green, anyone? 2014 was a tad better (Sean Newcomb) but also looks weak, and 2015 is way too soon to tell, but there's some promising signs (Taylor Ward, Jahmai Jones, maybe one or two others).

 

I personally don't know why why Ric Wilson still has his job. He's had five drafts and not a lot to show for it. I'm guessing he's on Eppler's radar for a short-leash. Maybe one more draft? I personally wouldn't wait - the proof is in the pudding, and Wilson's tenure has seen the Angels farm go from mediocre to worse. Time to move on.

[Second Base]

It should be noted that I have been told by two people one affliiated, that a big reason why the Angels haven't spent any money at the major league level is becuase they have begun Tom allocate resources elsewhere. They spent money's on a new minor league complex in the Dominican (while also refusing the set up any sort of scouting in the Orient), and this year Eppler was given the go-ahead to set up a state of the art analytics department to better analyze the current prospects.

My guess is they'll wait for the new CBA to be put into effect before spending, but when it does, we'll use a lot of that money coming off the books at the major league level to acquire some serious talent from Latin America.

[CanadianHalo]

I really hope we can trade off some bullpen pieces and some big leaguers this season and restock the farm. I'm excited about a rebuild, there's so many young talented guys out there right now and besides Trout we got squat.

I've watched the Jays bullpen blow the last couple games. I know their farm system isn't much better than ours but they're in "win now" mode maybe Billy Boy can take advantage of that. I'd gladly take Dalton Pompey in a package.

[Blarg]

So - Can anyone tell me why we have the worst farm system in MLB?

 

 

[Chuck]

It's a new year Chuck! 

 

 

"It started when they fired Eddie Bane.  The guy who drafted Trout, Grichuk, Skaggs and Richards in 2009."

 

This is what slipped my mind...BANE....That was the start of the slide.

Freaking stupid....

 

"It doesn't help that the owner refuses to spend on international talent. "

 

When the Oakland freakin' A's spend more than you in ANYTHING....you're an idiot...

 

 

Oh I agree, trust me. And the last draft that Bane had was all Tony Reagins' picks. That's why they nabbed guys like Bolden (RIP), Clarke and took a chance on Cowart who hopefully pans out eventually, but what an awful draft that was. 

 

Reagins wanted Bane to go against his draft chart and draft toolsy amateurs in an effort to save signing money. 

 

Then he blamed the last draft on Bane and didn't renew his contract. 

[totdprods]

I personally don't know why why Ric Wilson still has his job. He's had five drafts and not a lot to show for it. I'm guessing he's on Eppler's radar for a short-leash. Maybe one more draft? I personally wouldn't wait - the proof is in the pudding, and Wilson's tenure has seen the Angels farm go from mediocre to worse. Time to move on.

With all the conflict that existed between the Dipoto group and the Arte/Sosh group, I can see why Eppler didn't clean house when he came in. I think we'll see him work 'his guys' into the org more gradually. Keeping Ric on board for one more draft gives Billy and Co. opportunity to assess what they view as weaknesses and strengths in not only Wilson, but his Wilson's team of scouts. It'll be a little easier to clean house. Since Eppler's trying to sort of marry his admin in with the existing old-school guys, he may want to keep some of the old guard in tow so as not to undo the work and scouting they've been doing. Still comes with risk.

[totdprods]

I'm still considering, and hoping, Eppler is viewing '16 as a transition/assessment season. 

Several players can establish themselves this season and set themselves up to be a part of the Trout years. 

If Gia mirrors his '15 offense and improves defensively, we arguably have second covered for a couple years.

If Perez can keep pace, catcher is definitely set for the next several years, especially with Bandy and Ward in waiting. 

Mahle, Bedrosian, Morin all need to see ample time this year, and any can grow into solid pen pieces. 

Also time to see what the heck type of player Cron is. Drop Ortega into LF for a spell if Gentry/Nava get hurt or suck, and see if he turn into our own Ender Inciarte.

 

If this team is struggling midseason, I see no reason to deal off Smith, Escobar, Soto, Wilson.

All of those should be able to return a decent prospect back, similar to the Scott Downs for Rasmus deal. Or go after a reclamation project like a Jackie Bradley, Dalton Pompey, Trevor Bauer. Someone young with control that hasn't lived up to their talents. If we get lucky we'd have another player to add to the core. 

Depending on what Nava, Choi, Cowart, or Kubitza are doing, you can maybe even dangle Cron. 

If Morin, Bedrosian, Mahle step up and the team is REALLY tanking, Street could go up on the block. 

If the team is absolutely terrible, deal off Calhoun or Richards for MLB-ready talent, and let them develop the remainder of '16 and 2017 and hope they're contributing by 2018-2020 seasons.

 

Draft well this year, save money and hit the international FAs hard when the Baldoquin restrictions lift. 
This offseason, sign more rebound candidate and minor-league FA types, maybe a middle of the road player with no draft pick attached. 

Draft well again next year with a higher position in the order.

 

Just those steps alone would put the team in a much better place in a year or two, and you don't have to totally gut the team or dive into a major rebuild to do it. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by totdprods

[California Cajun]

we've been through this.  

 

It's multi-factorial.  It boils down to a lack of resources allocated to scouting and player development.  It's the difference between the long term investment that the fans seen immediately vs. the one they don't.  The latter is better for the team long term, but the former keeps them in the seats.  

 

On top of it, the path of how to acquire young players was chosen as a result of this philosophy, and it failed miserably.  The high floor college player method sucked.  But it's a chicken and egg argument.  Did we go this route because the org resources just weren't there to properly scout so a more thorough approach could be undertaken?  Maybe.  

 

But they would likely have been better off drafting from a ranking of players obtained from outside resources.

 

Since we have no means of obtaining talent except through the draft, Eppler's biggest make or break will be in this area.  If he has been able to convince Arte of what needs to be done, then we have a shot. 

 

If it's business as usual, we are on the verge of an ice age.

I think Eppler has the cooperation of the organization to stabilize the franchise. It was obvious to me during Spring Training that the culture had improved and Eppler was the major addition.

[Thomas]

The trick is how do you go into a much necessary franchise rebuild mode while simultaneously having a generational player in Trout?