SCOTUS: Same Sex Marriage Legal Nationwide

[Angelsjunky]

Juan Savage, your "natural law" is still a human construct - a human telling of what is natural. What is missing from it is that some men naturally are sexually attracted to men and some women are naturally attracted to women. It is natural to them, as natural as your (presumably) heterosexuality is to you.

 

By the way, did you know there is homosexual activity in the animal world?

[nate]

Christians aren't "bred" to do anything.  

and of course we think people should believe the same or it wouldn't be a faith, would it?  Nobody in the church is making the argument that people "have" to believe.  Most people with any point of view believe others should share that point of view.  Why would anyone have an opinion that they didn't think was the right opinion.

 

But your government should prevent people from having things that you don't believe in?

[juansavage1]

Freedom of individual conscious is a Christian invention (while often supporting official state recognition).

Ok and I'm bowing out for a while. Like I said, I hate arguing, but felt I had something to contribute.

[BaseballMom]

This was posted on Facebook by Richie Branson: I really liked what he had to say.

 

As a follower of Christ and lover of all people regardless of race, gender, political affiliation, sexual orientation, or game console preference, I'm going to be very blunt with my fellow Christians: why are you so pissed about this change in MAN's law? Absolutely nothing has changed in the Bible. God's law is exactly the same as it was before yesterday. The good book said that man's law wouldn't always line up with God's law, so why are you upset that the Bible was correct? If you expect the nation's legal system to teach your children about Christ then you're sadly mistaken. God never placed that responsibility with the courts; It's YOUR responsibility to spread the gospel and love of Jesus Christ.

The law doesn't force pornography upon your household, but it's legal. The law doesn't force twerk videos unto your household, but it's legal. The law doesn't force heterosexual sex between two unmarried people into your household, but it's legal. The law doesn't force having children out of wedlock unto your household, but again... it's perfectly legal. Homosexual marriage, like the above mentioned "sins", does not impede on the basic rights of anyone else. It's perfectly fine not to condone it, but to condemn it and attempt to codify your beliefs into laws that disenfranchise those with different belief systems is not ok. Here's a newsflash: Making it legal for gay people to be married by definition of man's law doesn't mean the world is coming to an end. This isn't anything new, by the way, as 22 other countries already recognize same-sex marriage years before June 26th, 2015.

While we're on the subject, let's talk about state-sponsored sinful lifestyles for a second: every weekend I buy a lotto ticket from the corner store. I've been doing this for years. However, my Bible says to stay away from attempts to get rich quick (proverbs 13:11 and 23:5; Ecclesiastes 5:10). I guess that means I should also be condemned to the depths of Hell upon my death.

Look, there are so many other issues that require our attention as Christians: poverty, racism, genocide, persecution of Christians in the Middle East (while we're complaining about Christians losing influence in American politics, Middle-Eastern Christians are losing their LIVES), and others that are infinitely more worthy of our outrage than the issue of same-sex marriage in America. Instead of bloviating on social media about how offended you are about homosexuality, why don't you step out on faith and do some real kingdom work?

In closing, it is quite ironic that the most sin I've seen on social media isn't coming from all the rainbow colored profile pictures, but rather from self-proclaimed Christians shouting "F*ck this fag b.s." with a disturbing lack of one of the very cornerstones of the Christian faith: Grace.

 

 

 

[mtangelsfan]

But your government should prevent people from having things that you don't believe in?

 

But your government should prevent people from having things that you don't believe in?

not really anything to do with what you said in the post I quoted

[Jason]

I agree with him too BaseballMom

[mtangelsfan]

Jody, I really like what you posted and I agree with it almost to a tee.  As I've said from the beginning of this thread my only concern is what happens if a church is sued because they wont do a wedding service for a gay couple.

 

That is honestly my only concern.

[nate]

Christians are bred (sic)to think that way?

 

Bred, my bad.

 

how many muslims you know believe in the Christian God?  It is bred... all of the beliefs are bred.  Otherwise Muslims would pray to Jesus and Buddhists would pray to Allah.

[mtangelsfan]

Not bred.  False

[Angelsjunky]

Good stuff, Baseball Mom. I wish more Christians had this attitude, although my guess is that most do and it is--as usual--a vocal minority that muddies the waters.

 

I think this quote cuts to the point: "It's perfectly fine not to condone it, but to condemn it and attempt to codify your beliefs into laws that disenfranchise those with different belief systems is not ok."

 

Now I personally disagree with the underlying assumption that "God's law" is against homosexuality because I don't equate Biblical law with God's law, but I'd fight for the right for people to believe that if they want to.

 

On a side note, I thought this was Richard Branson until the part about buying a lottery ticket. LOL.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Angelsjunky

[Angelsjunky]

How about "learned" or "taught" rather than "bred."

[Don]

Jody, I really like what you posted and I agree with it almost to a tee. As I've said from the beginning of this thread my only concern is what happens if a church is sued because they wont do a wedding service for a gay couple.

That is honestly my only concern.

I'm with you there. Churches shouldn't be forced into offering their facilities to anybody really. I don't care if it's because the couple is homosexual, they've lived together before marriage, they're too short, or they wear too much body spray. I believe church leadership should be able to choose which events they want to hold and which ones they don't. Edited June 29, 2015 by Don

[mtangelsfan]

Every christian makes their own choice.  I was raised secular and became a Christian when I was 18

[Don]

Bred, my bad.

 

how many muslims you know believe in the Christian God?  It is bred... all of the beliefs are bred.  Otherwise Muslims would pray to Jesus and Buddhists would pray to Allah.

I get what you're trying to say, but "bred" is the wrong term. My eye color was bred into me. My bone structure was bred into me. My belief system? Not so much. Of course, being born to two parents of the same faith likely increases the odds of a child also adopting that faith, but there's some free will involved along the way.

[BaseballMom]

Good stuff, Baseball Mom. I wish more Christians had this attitude, although my guess is that most do and it is--as usual--a vocal minority that muddies the waters.

 

I think this quote cuts to the point: "It's perfectly fine not to condone it, but to condemn it and attempt to codify your beliefs into laws that disenfranchise those with different belief systems is not ok."

 

Now I personally disagree with the underlying assumption that "God's law" is against homosexuality because I don't equate Biblical law with God's law, but I'd fight for the right for people to believe that if they want to.

 

On a side note, I thought this was Richard Branson until the part about buying a lottery ticket. LOL.

 

He is a musician, I only saw it because Adam liked it first...lol

[juansavage1]

Juan Savage, your "natural law" is still a human construct - a human telling of what is natural. What is missing from it is that some men naturally are sexually attracted to men and some women are naturally attracted to women. It is natural to them, as natural as your (presumably) heterosexuality is to you.

 

By the way, did you know there is homosexual activity in the animal world?

You're correct. Natural Law assumes that the universe is designed and some things are wrong or right, independent of opinion. It posits that we can derive what's good from observation of nature. 

 

Think before you base what's right on what people are attracted to, regardless of a higher or natural purpose. People can be sexually attracted to all sorts of things and people, of all ages. 

 

If you assume no design, then moral discussion is useless and it's just what you want. Even atheists, however, in countries like China see no use for holding that a procreative union capable of life from its participants- the minimum- no more, no less is of no more importance to society as people who just want benefits or who have strong feelings for each other. 

Edited June 29, 2015 by Juan Savage

[arch stanton]

I'm just curious, MT, if you would differentiate between renting out your facility for a gay wedding versus your church actually performing it. Are we full on ideologists or is there some capitalist mixed in?

[nate]

Fine, not bread, raised.  Either way there is a reason they have those beliefs and it is because it is what their friends and family tell them.

[Rico]

Every christian makes their own choice.  I was raised secular and became a Christian when I was 18

Around the world the #1 determining factor on what religion a person identifies with is location. If you are born in India it is highly likely you practice Hinduism. Same if you are born in a Muslim country you will probably be Muslim. So if you are born in the United states and you have family that is Christian, and your friends are Christian, and the girls/boys you date are Christian, and you take winter off for Christmas vacation, and one day you say to yourself I'm Christian. Don't be surprised by that because it was actually pre-determined before you ever had a free thought.

[Lou]

Every christian makes their own choice.  I was raised secular and became a Christian when I was 18

huh? but this doesn't fall in line with

you being a mindless robot, merely doing

as you were bred to do.

get back in formation, sodier

[Lou]

Fine, not bread, raised.  Either way there is a reason they have those beliefs and it is because it is what their friends and family tell them.

you should really stop now

[Angelsjunky]

You're correct. Natural Law assumes that the universe is designed and some things are wrong or right, independent of opinion. It posits that we can derive what's good from observation of nature. 

 

Think before you base what's right on what people are attracted to, regardless of a higher or natural purpose. People can be sexually attracted to all sorts of things and people, of all ages. 

 

If you assume no design, then moral discussion is useless and it's just what you want. Even atheists, however, in countries like China see no use for holding that a procreative union capable of life from its participants- the minimum- no more, no less is of no more importance to society as people who just want benefits or who have strong feelings for each other. 

 

This is where you are mistaken. You imply, even outright say, that either one believes in "Natural Law" or is a complete hedonistic atheist - as if there is no alternative, whether we're talking secular humanism, existentialism, nontheistic religions like Buddhism, or mystical traditions that emphasize experience or gnosis over belief. There are other paths beyond your black-and-white bifurcation, Juan. For instance, the existentialist viewpoint is that we create meaning and morality - and there is a lot of room for moral discussion in that perspective. Actually, there is more room for discussion because it isn't about referring back to a predetermined scripture but deciding for oneself what is good, true, and beautiful. It isn't simply about what feels good, but what feels true, what feels right, what is beautiful and even sublime.

 

I don't really put an "ism" to my own worldview, which is rather philosophically eclectic, but I resonate quite a bit with existentialism. In this view we're all here on planet Earth as human beings living with the same existential truths of life and death, suffering, love, meaning, etc. We're all trying to figure it out, who we are, what the meaning of life is. Some take prescribed paths like organized religion or secular ideologies like the multiculturalism that is the dominant paradigm on most college campuses. But some don't find these pre-packaged answers to be satisfying and instead want to find their own way.

 

Actually, I'm not anti-religious, I just don't resonate with orthodox religion, which is belief-based. I am much more interested in the mystical/esoteric paths that exist within all religions that do away with the intermediary of the Church or even scripture between the individual and God. Actually, I think this is what Jesus and all of the great world's spiritual teachers advocated: be your own light, find your own way - God is within you. Read the Gospel of Thomas, for instance, one of the scriptures not included in the Bible that was rediscovered in the 20th century as part of the "Nag Hammadi Library," or Gnostic Gospels. But that's probably another discussion.

 

But my point is, there are paths and ways of being in the world that aren't of orthodox religion or atheism.

[Spirit]

Fine, not bread, raised.  Either way there is a reason they have those beliefs and it is because it is what their friends and family tell them.

 

 

Interesting.  I had no idea that I believed the way I do because it's what my friends and family told me.  If only I could think for myself. 

[nate]

you should really stop now

 

Really?  Because all the people that grow up with other religions are magically switching religions?  You are whatever religion you grow up with.  Sure there are outliers but there are far more followers.

[Stradling]

Really? Because all the people that grow up with other religions are magically switching religions? You are whatever religion you grow up with. Sure there are outliers but there are far more followers.

We're your parents atheists?