Aviation Fans

[ten ocho recon scout]

Would you say the closest comp to the f-35 is the eurofighter with stealth? Not quite the performance of the top end fighters but avionics above all kind of deal?

[arch stanton]

Probably a good comp. The idea of a single base platform with so many different roles just gives me the sense that we sacrificed superiority for utility. Like we're taking everyone's tool boxes away and handing them super Leathermans.

[Tank]

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Did not know that. I assume because taking off vertical need a lighter plane? And does taking off vertical eat more gas than conventional take off?

 

The Harrier is reportedly a gas hog. A VTOL aircraft requires more fuel because you are directly lifting the entire weight of the aircraft rather than propelling it forward at increasing speed until the wings gain enough lift for it to fly.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[arch stanton]

Great. Now take that and go roll back the engine in that F-35.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Probably a good comp. The idea of a single base platform with so many different roles just gives me the sense that we sacrificed superiority for utility. Like we're taking everyone's tool boxes away and handing them super Leathermans.

absolutely agree. I think the same thing about the super hornet.

Its like putting a bayonet on a machine gun and using it against tanks.

Hopefully this thing proves us all wrong and ends up being all its advertised to be. Personally, i would have preffered we either built more raptors and created some way to make them better st air to ground (by different radars or designators), or even (gasp) purchased some off the shelf platofrm like the eurofighter, grippen or something while using the savings to augment the a-10 and or f-16 fleet.

[ten ocho recon scout]

The Harrier is reportedly a gas hog. A VTOL aircraft requires more fuel because you are directly lifting the entire weight of the aircraft rather than propelling it forward at increasing speed until the wings gain enough lift for it to fly.

yep, what little i ever saw of them they always had their wing tanks, and usually the outboard pylons were aim-9s...leaving only 2 left for air to ground..which is what they were supposed to be providing. Cool air show performer, but never really been a fan.

[arch stanton]

One thing to say in its defense is that most carrier based aircraft don't land with unexpended ordnance so heavy payloads often go to waste on carriers. Hopefully the advanced avionics give it low altitude survivability against SAMs.

[Don]

One thing to say in its defense is that most carrier based aircraft don't land with unexpended ordnance so heavy payloads often go to waste on carriers. Hopefully the advanced avionics give it low altitude survivability against SAMs.

Legit question: Why would unexpended ordinance go to waste on carriers? Do they not re-use it? Or are you just speaking about operational efficiency? (i.e. They don't want to have extra weight back on board? Or they arm their planes with just enough ordinance to handle the mission/sortie they've been assigned to?)

Edited June 25, 2015 by Don

[arch stanton]

Legit question: Why would unexpended ordinance go to waste on carriers? Do they not re-use it? Or are you just speaking about operational efficiency? (i.e. They don't want to have extra weight back on board? Or they arm their planes with just enough ordinance to handle the mission/sortie they've been assigned to?)

They usually jettison all they don't expend before landing on the carrier.

[Don]

They usually jettison all they don't expend before landing on the carrier.

But why? Just curious as to the reasoning.

[Blarg]

"Its like putting a bayonet on a machine gun and using it against tanks."

You described the Angels offensive strategy.

[ten ocho recon scout]

But why? Just curious as to the reasoning.

bring back weight. Landing on a carrier is a lot more stressful than on a runway because the planes dont glide in, they crash in. Because of the short landing strip and the possobility of missing the wire, the plane has to land at full power to have enough energy to lift off again.

Because of it, navy planes are always heavier than air force planes because the structure and especially landing gear are bulkier to handle the stress. With that heavier weight they always suffer some performance wise vs air force planes.

[ten ocho recon scout]

"Its like putting a bayonet on a machine gun and using it against tanks."

You described the Angels offensive strategy.

Close. Trout would be the bayonet, pujols the machine gun. The rest of the offense would be blanks in the ammo belt. Edited June 26, 2015 by ten ocho recon scout

[arch stanton]

But why? Just curious as to the reasoning.

Carrier landings are tenuous enough without a 2000 lb bunker buster on your centerline

[Vegas Halo Fan]

yep, what little i ever saw of them they always had their wing tanks, and usually the outboard pylons were aim-9s...leaving only 2 left for air to ground..which is what they were supposed to be providing. Cool air show performer, but never really been a fan.

 

Saw one at an air show once, impressive performance. The Marine who piloted it pointed the nose toward the crowd while hovering, did a clockwise spin stopping at 90-degree intervals and then dipped the nose (as if bowing to the crowd) before landing vertically.

 

Another factor in the use of fuel is that vectored thrust aircraft are less efficient because of the plumbing that carries the thrust to the exhaust nozzles (instead of a fixed straight tube as on more conventional military jets).

[LBHalos17]

My buddy sent this vid to me.  It's a few civilian flyers who decided to fill the void when the military decided a flyover was too expensive.  They also set a Guiness World Record for number of planes in formation.

 

[nate]

Whoah, that is badass.

[Tank]

wow, go big or go home. well done, kansas city.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

I counted somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 planes in that formation. I have never seen anything like that before.

[Tank]

Great. Now take that and go roll back the engine in that F-35.

 

no problem. please hand me some WD40 and a little bit of baling wire.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

I was in the neighborhood. The website linked below said that there were 49 aircraft in the formation. This web page also includes other videos taken from different perspectives, including one shot from the air.

 

Videos: 49 Homebuilt Aircraft Build World Record Formation Over Arrowhead Stadium

Edited June 27, 2015 by Vegas Halo Fan

[ten ocho recon scout]

Saw one at an air show once, impressive performance. The Marine who piloted it pointed the nose toward the crowd while hovering, did a clockwise spin stopping at 90-degree intervals and then dipped the nose (as if bowing to the crowd) before landing vertically.

Another factor in the use of fuel is that vectored thrust aircraft are less efficient because of the plumbing that carries the thrust to the exhaust nozzles (instead of a fixed straight tube as on more conventional military jets).

did not know that, thats ctually very interesting. Im not sure, but id think that would make maintenance on a system like that more of a pain in the ass. You have to start weighing out sooner or later whether the trade off of low payload/range/performance would be worth vertical take off...

[Vegas Halo Fan]

did not know that, thats ctually very interesting. Im not sure, but id think that would make maintenance on a system like that more of a pain in the ass. You have to start weighing out sooner or later whether the trade off of low payload/range/performance would be worth vertical take off...

 

From what I read, VTOL capability came in very handy for the Royal Navy during the Falklands War. A Harrier would be pursued by an Argentinian Mirage, the Harrier would just stop in mid-air and then fire at the Mirage after it went past.

[Blarg]

I was in the neighborhood. The website linked below said that there were 49 aircraft in the formation. This web page also includes other videos taken from different perspectives, including one shot from the air.

Videos: 49 Homebuilt Aircraft Build World Record Formation Over Arrowhead Stadium

Originaly it was only supposed to be three planes before Royals fans got involved.