Aviation Fans

[ten ocho recon scout]

The A-10 was designed to do one thing, and it does that one thing impeccably well. It won't be adequately replaced by some multipurpose aircraft.

agreed. Imo, its the same reason the b-52 hasnt been replaced, and is still a "day 1" weapon. Even with its shortcomings, it hasnt been bested by anything newer.

One huge advantage the a-10 has over the fast movers in afghanistan is its maneuverability. Getting into those canyons and being able to turn is tough for a fast plane.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Mexico has an Air Force?

where the hell is cals with this ally oop setup?

[Tank]

thanks for all of the quality information, ocho and arch.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Thanks for listening to my nerdom tank, lol. Ive always loved planes, its great having an active duty guy like arch to ask questions.

Slightly off topic, but if anyone lives local (orange county area), the chino planes of fame museum is amazing. They have the largest collection of restored ww2 planes in the world. I love jets, but really love the ww2 era. The air show they do is great, personally like it better than miramar.

[Tank]

Thanks for listening to my nerdom tank, lol. Ive always loved planes, its great having an active duty guy like arch to ask questions.

 

i've been a fan of jets for a long time, but without any direct military experience, i'm missing some details. i've tried to get info whenever there's an opportunity but nothing beats firsthand knowledge from those who have it. thanks.

[gotbeer]

Thanks for listening to my nerdom tank, lol. Ive always loved planes, its great having an active duty guy like arch to ask questions.

Slightly off topic, but if anyone lives local (orange county area), the chino planes of fame museum is amazing. They have the largest collection of restored ww2 planes in the world. I love jets, but really love the ww2 era. The air show they do is great, personally like it better than miramar.

 

I loved as a kid going to the Chino airshows.  Just seeing those old birds fly, and totally restored.  

[mp170.6]

Keep it up Ten Ocho and Arch...always fun to read, even if I don't understand everything. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Those old world war 2 planes are still impressive to this day. The distinct sound of a really strong piston engine in the fighters....maybe not 'as' cool as a jet engine, but still really cool.

Seeing a group of them flying in formation is awesome. Last year they had something like 5 b-17s flying at once....rheres probably less than 15 left flying in the world, so to see that many together was amazing.

Theres only 1 b-24 left flyong in the world and i was lucky enough to get a ride on it. They tour the country and come around here once a year.

Sad fact, but the tail end of ww2 ushered in the jet age. The leap technology wise just over the next 5 years was insane. So the overwhelming majority of planes that had dominated the world war were obsolete almost overnight. The b-29 was a game changer....5 years later over korea is could only be used sparingly because it was so vulnerable to the new migs.

So when you consider all the history behind legendary planes like the 4 engine 'heavies' (17s, 24s, lancasters, etc) and fighters (spitfires, mustangs, hellcats, fw 190s etc) the majority had zero ise anympre and were simply sold for scrap...mustangs were sold to the public for private ownership, but most other planes were nust cut up. So theres very few examples left of any of those big named planes. Very sad.

Speakimg of korea, some out there may not know, but the term "86'd" came from the f-86 and its reputation over the mig. In recent years the record has come under dispute, but the reputation at least is where the term came from

[ten ocho recon scout]

Heres another sad nerd fact for any fans of the tomcat.

Only one other country operated the tomcat, and that would be iran. When the shah was still in power we supplied them much like we do israel, saudi etc. They had a fly off between the tom and the eagle. The iranians chose the tomcat because of the phoenix missile and its alparent ability to knock out mig-25s that kept flying recon flights over it. (The eagle was the better fighter though late model tomcats probably closed the gap. Arch could answer that a lot better than me).

Anyway, its unconfirmed on our end but the iranian tomcats had a ridiculous success rate over the iraqi air force. Thats big becausw at the time iraq had very modern 4th generation planes, from late model migs to french mirages etc. The oranians claimed to have used the phoenix to good use against fighters, which is great because it was intended to shoot down slow bombers and cruise missiles.

Anyway, we retired the tomcat about 8 years or so ago. And because of the fear of parts being canabalized and sent to iran, we chopped up ALL of our tomcats. Theres like 15 nationwide that all have nothing inside, just the skin so to speak on display. Thats sad.....that plane is a legend. It never got into much air to air combat (at least on our end), but during its lifetime it was top of the food chain. The soviets thought it was sci fi. A fast jet with incredible range that could theoretically kill 6 soviet bombers at a distance of 100 miles....

Heres a cool video of one of its few air to air kills

[ten ocho recon scout]

Not sure if anyone has seen the movie flight of the intruder. Decent movie, kind of cheesy acting. But theres great footagw of a good mix of planes in it.

Anyway, reference the a-10, in the movie thewy use skyraiders (a-1). The a-10 is the next generation of that plane. You can watch how it was used in that movie and see how an a-10 is used today. And it shows why a prop driven 'gunfighter' is better at close air support than an uber sophisticated fast jet...and yet we still want to get rid of the a-10s. Big, big mistake.

[gotbeer]

Heres another sad nerd fact for any fans of the tomcat.

Only one other country operated the tomcat, and that would be iran. When the shah was still in power we supplied them much like we do israel, saudi etc. They had a fly off between the tom and the eagle. The iranians chose the tomcat because of the phoenix missile and its alparent ability to knock out mig-25s that kept flying recon flights over it. (The eagle was the better fighter though late model tomcats probably closed the gap. Arch could answer that a lot better than me).

Anyway, its unconfirmed on our end but the iranian tomcats had a ridiculous success rate over the iraqi air force. Thats big becausw at the time iraq had very modern 4th generation planes, from late model migs to french mirages etc. The oranians claimed to have used the phoenix to good use against fighters, which is great because it was intended to shoot down slow bombers and cruise missiles.

Anyway, we retired the tomcat about 8 years or so ago. And because of the fear of parts being canabalized and sent to iran, we chopped up ALL of our tomcats. Theres like 15 nationwide that all have nothing inside, just the skin so to speak on display. Thats sad.....that plane is a legend. It never got into much air to air combat (at least on our end), but during its lifetime it was top of the food chain. The soviets thought it was sci fi. A fast jet with incredible range that could theoretically kill 6 soviet bombers at a distance of 100 miles....

Heres a cool video of one of its few air to air kills

 

wasn't the tomcat the top gun plane?  That is sad if they aren't around anymore.  

[arch stanton]

Tomcats were too big to be great dogfighters but with the Phoenix missiles they were great interceptors.

 

As far as facing the Iraqi Air Force, I'd say the majority of the difference was in operator abilities. I could definitely see the Iranians having a massive advantage there, especially at  a time when many of their crews would have been US trained.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Not sure if anyone has seen the movie flight of the intruder. Decent movie, kind of cheesy acting. But theres great footagw of a good mix of planes in it.

Thought that the movie overall sucked, but there was some great aircraft shots.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

wasn't the tomcat the top gun plane? That is sad if they aren't around anymore.

Yes, F-14s were the stars of Top Gun.

[ten ocho recon scout]

wasn't the tomcat the top gun plane? That is sad if they aren't around anymore.

yep, thats the plane. Funny enough, the "migs" in that movie were played by f-5s, which is the plane pic blarg posted

[ten ocho recon scout]

Tomcats were too big to be great dogfighters but with the Phoenix missiles they were great interceptors.

As far as facing the Iraqi Air Force, I'd say the majority of the difference was in operator abilities. I could definitely see the Iranians having a massive advantage there, especially at a time when many of their crews would have been US trained.

i think once the tomcats got re-engined (f-14d) they became pretty formidable in a dogfight, but yeah, probably still (assuming 2 pilots of the same skill) be on the wrong end against a dedicated fighter like an eagle or a sukhoi.

Not sure how reliable that phoenix actually was, but at least per its advertising, its use against soviet bombers (especially bears) would have probably been pretty amazing.

For those unfamiliar, during the cold war, the doctrine for the navy was the carrier was the capital ship (still to this day). The russian counter was heavy bombers with heavy, heavy anti ship missiles. They could fire their missiles from well outside the SAM envelope of the carriers screening ships (cruisers, detroyers), as well as out of range of most fighter launched air to air missiles.

The tomcat was built around the phoenix missile (much like the a-10 was built around its cannon). The phoenix had a range of 100 miles, add roughly 500 to that with the tomcats patrol range. The missile hopefully could knock out the bomber prior to it launching its weapon against the carrier, but it could also be used to shoot the russian missile down.

After the cold war ended the tomcats price/maintenence became an issue, especially since the threat had pretty much evaporated. It was later replaced by the super hornet.

The tomcat did extend its life for several years though as a strike aircraft. It actually in a lot of ways outperformed the hornet in that role. The hornet could carry a much woder variety of weapons, but the tomcat could carry a much heavier load, and way further than the hornets.

Theres a lot of argument to this day that the medium strike role the intruder and later tomcat filled hasnt been replaced in the navy. Bombing iraq lets say is doable by hornets because it borders the ocean. But hitting like syria would be a lot trickier, and mainly would need the air force. The only problem with the air force is that they may not have a friendly airfield close enough, so the only option is heavy bombers. The problem there is theres only so many, and the turn around takes a lot longer.

[arch stanton]

Your willingness to type far outweighs mine.

 

I spent a year at an alert facility in Alaska. Our only function was to follow the Bears and Cokes around when they got too close. These were F-15C models and some were out there as long as 10 hours. Between the 2 alert sites we scrambled 22 times in the year I was there.(Aug '90-'91) then by the end of my tour there was a SU-27 doing a demo at Elmendorf. Times change quick.

[Blarg]

yep, thats the plane. Funny enough, the "migs" in that movie were played by f-5s, which is the plane pic blarg posted

so they were shooting down the Mexican Air Force? Not very sporting.

[red321]

Thanks for listening to my nerdom tank, lol. Ive always loved planes, its great having an active duty guy like arch to ask questions.

Slightly off topic, but if anyone lives local (orange county area), the chino planes of fame museum is amazing. They have the largest collection of restored ww2 planes in the world. I love jets, but really love the ww2 era. The air show they do is great, personally like it better than miramar.

 

I spent a some time at Planes of Fame awhile back...planes are a little close together but it is still a cool place to photograph

 

http://redinkphotography.photoshelter.com/gallery/Planes-of-Fame/G0000NhAUk9QQ7FU

[gotbeer]

I spent a some time at Planes of Fame awhile back...planes are a little close together but it is still a cool place to photograph

 

http://redinkphotography.photoshelter.com/gallery/Planes-of-Fame/G0000NhAUk9QQ7FU

 

When red says a cool place to photograph and has a link.  Your photo skills that you thought you had just dies a little bit.  

[red321]

When red says a cool place to photograph and has a link.  Your photo skills that you thought you had just dies a little bit.  

 

I'll take that as a compliment!

[ten ocho recon scout]

Your willingness to type far outweighs mine.

I spent a year at an alert facility in Alaska. Our only function was to follow the Bears and Cokes around when they got too close. These were F-15C models and some were out there as long as 10 hours. Between the 2 alert sites we scrambled 22 times in the year I was there.(Aug '90-'91) then by the end of my tour there was a SU-27 doing a demo at Elmendorf. Times change quick.

lol, yeah my add kicks in and i can go on and on.

Thats crazy. Once the wall fell suddenly everything changed. Slowly inching back to the old days though.

Id kill to get a close up look at a su-27. Thats a bad mofo

[ten ocho recon scout]

so they were shooting down the Mexican Air Force? Not very sporting.

remember those stories of russians defecting in migs?...

[Tank]

Yes, F-14s were the stars of Top Gun.

 

someone has apparently forgotten the worlds greatest volleyball game from that movie.

 

i'll forgive your for such an egregious omission, but it'll probably take a little while.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

Your willingness to type far outweighs mine.

I spent a year at an alert facility in Alaska. Our only function was to follow the Bears and Cokes around when they got too close. These were F-15C models and some were out there as long as 10 hours. Between the 2 alert sites we scrambled 22 times in the year I was there.(Aug '90-'91) then by the end of my tour there was a SU-27 doing a demo at Elmendorf. Times change quick.

I am a child of the Cuban missile crisis. My father was a full timer in the Florida ANG (electric shop chief). My elementary school years were spent assembling Civil Defense packets, practicing evacuation drills and watching films that taught me that the only safe place in the event of a direct nuclear strike was under my school desk. Since my home town was (and is) the home port for the Navy's South Atlantic Fleet, we were high on the list of early targets should anything kick off.

Fast forward to 1989. I am watching Sukhoi SU-27s perform in an air show in Oklahoma City, and I am standing aboard the Antonov AN-225 and talking to the flight crew. Back then I could never have imagined it.