Israel vs. Palestine

[UndertheHalo]

I guess it isn't just about having a Palestinian state.  I don't really blame them but it kind of negates the argument they have used against Israel and why it had to be that exact area to have a country.

 

http://www.inquisitr.com/1461098/palestinians-offered-state-five-times-the-size-of-palestine-by-egyptian-president-abbas-rejects/

I doubt the authenticity of this.  Something like this would be major news and basically no significant news outlet is reporting it.  Also, there are significant natural gas and possibly oil deposits in the Sinai, Egypt would never ever surrender those resources. Whats left of the Sinai is sand dunes. What good does that serve.  That said, how could Abbas possibly accept such an offer.  Its not about getting any piece of land, its about establishing a state on their land.  

 

I think the bigger news is the potential collapse of the unity government with Abbas recent comments.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-palestinian-leader-assails-hamas-calling-unity-pact-into-question.html?_r=0

Edited September 9, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[mtangelsfan]

I doubt the authenticity of this.  Something like this would be major news and basically no significant news outlet is reporting it.  Also, there are significant natural gas and possibly oil deposits in the Sinai, Egypt would never ever surrender those resources. Whats left of the Sinai is sand dunes. What good does that serve.  That said, how could Abbas possibly accept such an offer.  Its not about getting any piece of land, its about establishing a state on their land.  

 

I think the bigger news is the potential collapse of the unity government with Abbas recent comments.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-palestinian-leader-assails-hamas-calling-unity-pact-into-question.html?_r=0

 

Wasn't that Israel's stance after WWII?

[Lhalo]

Wasn't that Israel's stance after WWII?

 

Israel's stance was establishing a state on land that wasn't theirs.

 

Key difference there.

[mtangelsfan]

Israel's stance was establishing a state on land that wasn't theirs.

 

Key difference there.

 

actually, it was theirs at one point in time.  Just like the Palestinians.  No difference except for years. 

[InsideThePark]

Lol, yeah thousands of them. But details, details.

[mtangelsfan]

Did they have another homeland during those thousands of years?  Bottom line is entities want what they want.  Compromise is great but I don't blame the Israelis to want what they wanted and I don't blame the Palestinians for wanting what they want.

 

nobody/group is all good and nobody/group is all bad. 

[Lhalo]

Did they have another homeland during those thousands of years?  Bottom line is entities want what they want.  Compromise is great but I don't blame the Israelis to want what they wanted and I don't blame the Palestinians for wanting what they want.

 

nobody/group is all good and nobody/group is all bad. 

 

The gypsies don't have a homeland. Let's set aside a part of J-town for them. After all, fair is fair.

[TobiasFunke]

I don't remember 36 pages for the AW Chechnya vs. Russia thread

[mtangelsfan]

The gypsies don't have a homeland. Let's set aside a part of J-town for them. After all, fair is fair.

 

sigh, fight the good fight man. 

[Lhalo]

sigh, fight the good fight man. 

 

Well it's just silly that a few countries decided that a new nation should be created on top of an already existing nation.

 

I understand what's done is done but that doesn't make it right.

[UndertheHalo]

Lets be reasonable MT, do you think you have some sort of legitimate claim to whatever piece of land your long lost relatives lived on 3000 years ago ?  How could one even prove such a thing ? I mean, its reasonable to expect evidence for a claim like that no ? Im not an atheist or even agnostic, and to me such a claim requires more then what the bible says.  The people that founded the present state of Israel were largely European.  One group gave a second group a third groups home.  The entire act was wrong on any ethical scale.  Albert Einstein opposed it, Ghandi opposed it, Bertrand Russell opposed it.  The resistance that it has produced is justified.  For the Palestinians the establishment of the Israeli state was a catastrophic injustice.  That all being said, as Lawrence said, whats done is done.  Israel and Palestine should both exist.  It would be nice if one day it could be figured out. 

[mtangelsfan]

Lets be reasonable MT, do you think you have some sort of legitimate claim to whatever piece of land your long lost relatives lived on 3000 years ago ?  How could one even prove such a thing ? I mean, its reasonable to expect evidence for a claim like that no ? Im not an atheist or even agnostic, and to me such a claim requires more then what the bible says.  The people that founded the present state of Israel were largely European.  One group gave a second group a third groups home.  The entire act was wrong on any ethical scale.  Albert Einstein opposed it, Ghandi opposed it, Bertrand Russell opposed it.  The resistance that it has produced is justified.  For the Palestinians the establishment of the Israeli state was a catastrophic injustice.  That all being said, as Lawrence said, whats done is done.  Israel and Palestine should both exist.  It would be nice if one day it could be figured out. 

 

It isn't about the Bible.  I have never heard anyone claim that Israel didn't exist as a nation in that exact area.  It is the last place that they had a homeland, where would you expect them to want to be?  We both know that this isn't a religious issue either, Israel is probably more secular than the U.S.  I'm not making the argument that what happened should have happened, but I am saying I don't blame the Jews for wanting to be in the one place they knew as home nor do I blame the Palestinians for being pissed and wanting it back.

[nate]

This land was given to them at the end of World War 2.  Is that their fault?

 

Meanwhile every time Palestinians are given a chance to govern themselves and peacefully coexist they instead elect terrorists and start bombing Israel.

[Adam]

Hamas wants $551 Million from the UN to "rebuild Gaza". LOL

 

And they'll probably get it. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by Adam

[Lhalo]

Hamas wants $551 Million from the UN to "rebuild Gaza". LOL

 

And they'll probably get it. 

 

Hell ya boy. We've got to build stuff for the MIC to blow up again. Keep that business cycle goin' strong.

[UndertheHalo]

This land was given to them at the end of World War 2.  Is that their fault?

 

Meanwhile every time Palestinians are given a chance to govern themselves and peacefully coexist they instead elect terrorists and start bombing Israel.

So its alright for you take a car you know is stolen, just because someone gave it to you ? The land was not Britain nor the UN's to carve up and give away.  

 

What are you talking about "given chances" ? The Palestinians have a right to self determination because they are human beings. Not because Israel has "given them a chance" They are justified in pursuing a peace that is viable for them.  Not one that only suits the Israeli's. The violence is a two way street and a result of the conflict over the land. It is a fantasy that Israel is some benign victim. Israel is the most powerful nation in the region and it oversees a brutal settler based occupation in pursuit of its land grab agenda. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[mtangelsfan]

So its alright for you take a car you know is stolen, just because someone gave it to you ? The land was not Britain nor the UN's to carve up and give away.  

 

What are you talking about "given chances" ? The Palestinians have a right to self determination because they are human beings. Not because Israel has "given them a chance" They are justified in pursuing a peace that is viable for them.  Not one that only suits the Israeli's. The violence is a two way street and a result of the conflict over the land. It is a fantasy that Israel is some benign victim. Israel is the most powerful nation in the region and it oversees a brutal settler based occupation in pursuit of its land grab agenda. 

 

nate hasn't claimed Israel to be a benign victim any more than you have claimed Palestine to be one.  I know hyperbole is the message board meme but this subject needs better than that. 

[UndertheHalo]

nate hasn't claimed Israel to be a benign victim any more than you have claimed Palestine to be one.  I know hyperbole is the message board meme but this subject needs better than that. 

maybe i have made unfair assumptions. If so, i apologize to Nate. 

[mtangelsfan]

I think because we have our own position we argue from that position.  Like I have said before, I don't think anyone on here is naive enough to believe this situation is black and white or that there is a good side and an evil side. 

 

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out especially with the ISIL situation brewing.  Hopefully all these entities recognize they have a common enemy.

[TobiasFunke]

So its alright for you take a car you know is stolen, just because someone gave it to you ? The land was not Britain nor the UN's to carve up and give away.  

 

If you are a European Jew that lost pretty much their whole family and life during the war, then is told that you can live in an area free from harm and molestation, I'm pretty sure you take Britain up on their offer to live in modern day Israel. 

 

And to claim that Britain stole the land that is modern day Israel is a little ridiculous. They acquired it from the Ottomons who acquired it from someone else who acquired it from someone else. The land was Britain's to carve up and give away, that's how the World works unfortunately.

[nate]

Hamas wants $551 Million from the UN to "rebuild Gaza". LOL

 

And they'll probably get it. 

 

Man, that's a lot of rockets!

[arch stanton]

If everybody just wants peace then I suggest they demilitarize both sides and let the UN defend the territory.

[Lhalo]

If everybody just wants peace then I suggest they demilitarize both sides and let the UN defend the territory.

 

I don't think the UN could defend an anthill let alone an entire region.

[HaloMagic]

Should be easy though, since both sides want peace.

Right?

[InsideThePark]

Well it's just silly that a few countries decided that a new nation should be created on top of an already existing nation.

 

I understand what's done is done but that doesn't make it right.

Just to add to that, the wealthy Jews in the US put a ton of pressure on Truman and made financial threats if he did not push a creation of the Israeli state. They also bribed and made financial threats to other countries in the UN if they didn't vote for the Israeli state... quite a bit of corruption went into it. On the other side of the coin, the Arab world didn't exactly take the high road. They made violent threats, threatened to kill, blah blah blah. Anyways, as noted here its all history now. Israel has a right to exist and the focus should be on where do both sides go from here.