Israel vs. Palestine

[NrM]

FWIW, I saw CNN covering it earlier but it wasn't one of the top headlines. The conflict in general has become a bit of an afterthought with Ferguson and ISIS being the main focus.

which is how the media coverage should nornally be.

[mtangelsfan]

Hamas executed 18 "informants" yesterday in a public execution.

[nate]

UH and ITP, it goes back to the point that the PA tried to "side with" a terrorist organization rather than eliminate them.  How ever you spin it, it is bullshit.  Most Palestinian people seem to be fine with it too.

 

Justifying it as "military wing" and "political wing" is such a cop out.  They cannot control each other, and they never have been able to.  Arafat died and the Palestinian people selected the most murderous Jew hating people in their land to lead their country.

[arch stanton]

Yeah and I'm sure plenty of candidates were lining up to run as Jew lovers. Do you really think they get the same coverage and same spin on things as you do? They get to crawl up on the high horse of Natedom and see the light? Why not rent a flat in Gaza and show them how wrong they are?

[nate]

So they get a pass because of that?

 

It is ok that they continue to lob missiles and kill innocent people because nobody in their country wanted to step up and stop it?  Because nobody could?

Edited August 22, 2014 by nate

[Adam]

Israel is going to end up absolutely leveling Gaza

[arch stanton]

So they get a pass because of that?

 

It is ok that they continue to lob missiles and kill innocent people because nobody in their country wanted to step up and stop it?  Because nobody could?

Think about what you're saying. The innocent people they've seen killed are their relatives and neighbors..The only missiles the Palestinians know for sure exist are the ones that land in their living rooms and grocery stores. I can't imagine it computes to them that Hamas are terrorists but the ones bombing their homes are not. You really should go visit them and see for yourself.

[nate]

So Palestinians are oblivious to the fact that Hamas is lobbing missiles at Israel? 

[UndertheHalo]

So they get a pass because of that?

It is ok that they continue to lob missiles and kill innocent people because nobody in their country wanted to step up and stop it? Because nobody could?

why do you keep talking about whether the entire Palestinian population gets a pass or not. Is your view of this conflict really that one sided and simple ? Hamas was not elected to exterminate the jews as your appear to think. They were elected because Fatah had failed miserably at governing. Studies of the 2006 election have validated that fact. Organizations like Hamas are complex. They do more then just carry out attacks. They also provide services; the power is out ? Hamas takes care of it. Your kid needs a medical clinic, yea Hamas provides that. Hungry ? yep. Hamas. To the average Palestinian it probably made a lot of sense to let Hamas have a shot at governance given the results that Fatah had delivered. Lets catalogue those. Rampant corruption - check. Failure the deliver a solution with Israel - check. Intensifying settlement activity - check. Dog shit economy - check. Poor social services - check. The list goes on. So you see, the great crime of the Palestinians is apparently that they voted out their shitty leaders and replaced them with ones that Israel does not get along with. Ofcourse, lets not forget their other great crime, you know, existing.

So now, it is apparent that Hamas is even shittier at governing then Fatah, and that fact has beared out in Hamas increasingly lack of popularity. In fact before all this new trouble it was widely expected that Hamas would fail to be elected to any role in the Palestinian leadership. In the years since 2006 Salam Fayaad (who was the prime minister of the PA up until about 2 years ago) Did much to improve the governance function of the PA with Fatah leadership. Hind sight as the saying goes is always 20/20. Its easy to pretend that Israel is just protecting is wonderful democracy against the savage MOOslim arabs(as if all Palestinians and Arabs are Muslim) but that script is a bullshit lie and as desperately as Israel would like to rewrite history so that people like you can rally around them the facts do not change. Israel is not innocent. Israel has for the last 60 years stolen from, displaced, brutalized, and murdered the palestinian people. The Israeli's kill plenty of innocents whether the rockets are coming or not. So, why is it that you are so unwilling to empathize at all with the Palestinians ? I realize that its more then likely because you have only ever heard the Israeli narrative. I suggest that if you are seriously interested in the region, you look further into it. I assure you a far more balanced truth will present itself to you.

Edited August 22, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[arch stanton]

Maybe it slips their minds when they're scrounging for necessities that are being blockaded or burying their own dead from airstrikes. Maybe they have trouble remembering who Nate fingers as the bad guys. These people are getting jerked around by the entire planet and you want to condemn them for choosing potential death from supporting Hamas instead of near certain death from opposing them all while pretending you actually believe that pushing out Hamas will make Israel start treating them as humans. Tell me you truly believe they will lift the blockade if they vote Hamas out politically.

[nate]

So it would have been ok for Americans to elect Clinton in 94 because he made sure we had power and a great economy, if he also massacred Mexicans daily?

 

One good deed does not make up for one atrocious one.

[mtangelsfan]

No real good guy, no real bad guy.  As usual the regular people get screwed.

[UndertheHalo]

So it would have been ok for Americans to elect Clinton in 94 because he made sure we had power and a great economy, if he also massacred Mexicans daily?

 

One good deed does not make up for one atrocious one.

again, a ridiculous over simplification. In your hypothetical, is there a conflict with the Mexicans ? Are the Mexicans violently occupying us ? Context does matter, although you dont seem to think so. Also, Hamas, and certainly not Palestinians do not "massacre daily" Israelis. In fact, its completely the other way around. Hamas has in this conflict killed 3 civilians with its rockets and 60 something soldiers. We'll also add 3 more civlians with the tragedy in the West bank. Do we really need to count the Palestinians bodies ?

Edited August 22, 2014 by UndertheHalo

[UndertheHalo]

I wonder, since we're deciding who gets passes and who does not. Do the Israelis lose their pass for electing Ariel Sharon ? That great leader of men who murdered women and children in refugee camps in Lebanon ? He was forced to resign because the Israelis themselves found him guilty. Yet he was elected prime minister. So how about it Nate? Where do we stand on the Israelis and their pass ?

[nate]

Israel did not start taking actions to contain Palestinians until they began blowing up Israelis.

 

Sharon attacked refugee camps because terrorist groups were directing their operations from those camps.

 

Spare your shit dude.  Jews have been under attack for hundreds of years and everyone tries to blame them.  It is the very reason that Jews have been under attack.

[UndertheHalo]

So its justice then that the Palestinian Arabs lose their homes and lands because the Europeans abused the Jews. Why should the Palestinians be the ones paying that price ?  They committed no crimes against the Jews.  Why not have the Germans surrender Bavaria ?

[nate]

I had no idea that Egypt was in Europe.

[InsideThePark]

I think we all like nate and think he's a good guy but now I know how mt feels when he starts an argument over nothing. Talk about being intolerant and having a one-sided view.

[UndertheHalo]

I had no idea that Egypt was in Europe.

what are u talking about broseff ? you were talking about "hundreds of years" of the jews being persecuted. That was in Europe not the arab world. The jews fled north africa and the arab world to go settle in Israel when the troubles started between the arabs and zionists. There were not expulsions on the scale that the Israeli's inflicted on the Palestinians however. We can discuss the jewish migration into Israel/Palestine if you like. There are lots of different ways that happened.

[InsideThePark]

The main reason why they began migrating to Palestine is because they think a book written by a Jewish scholar told them that's where they belong. They believed that it was their religious right to be in control of that land. Seems a bit entitled to me over something that's hardly factual.

[mtangelsfan]

The main reason why they began migrating to Palestine is because they think a book written by a Jewish scholar told them that's where they belong. They believed that it was their religious right to be in control of that land. Seems a bit entitled to me over something that's hardly factual.

 

the history of the Old Testament is hardly fictional ITP.  You can argue about the miracles but almost all of the historical references in the OT have been proven true by archaeology.    Bottom line is that whether it was right or wrong, and that would be a painfully long and fruitless argument, Israel does exist.  How the world moves on from that, especially the Arab world, will dictate Israel and their own futures.

[InsideThePark]

I wasn't talking about the Old Testament, mt.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Judenstaat

[eaterfan]

To be fair a lot of Jews in Israel were displaced from Muslim countries. There were as many Jews who moved to Israel from Muslim countries as Muslim refugees after 1948. Many more displaced Jews from other countries moved other places and built lives.

[UndertheHalo]

To be fair a lot of Jews in Israel were displaced from Muslim countries. There were as many Jews who moved to Israel from Muslim countries as Muslim refugees after 1948. Many more displaced Jews from other countries moved other places and built lives.

this is not entirely accurate. Many Many Many of the jews who emigrated out of the muslim world into Israel did so out of a desire to embrace the zionist idea and move to Israel. Zionist agents actively sought to bring as many jews as possible into israel.  Many of them came out of north africa and while there were some instances of anti jewish violence, there was no significant push to force jews out.  There is no doubt that there were instances where anti jewish violence drove emigration particularly during heightened times of trouble between the arab states and Israel but again, not nearly on the same scale as the palestinian expulsion/exodus. 

[UndertheHalo]

Israeli child killed by a mortor. Terrible. 

 

Some other news, 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html

 

Meshaal admits that the attack in the west bank was unsanctioned, however carried out by Hamas members.  Also swears up and down that they do not advocate attacking civilians. However they do not view settlers as civilians.  Pretty much the standard line. 

 

Really wish this round of the fighting would just end.