Dipoto Fixes Problems by Creating Bigger Ones (Angry rant)

[Guest]

He started his job by trading off our pitching prospects, giving away our farm system for 3 months of Greinke, and when he didn't even try to get him he dismantled a team that only needed a good starting pitcher to compete.

Guess what? We still need a good starting pitcher.

Trading Bourjos for David Freese is an example of DiPoto's mind boggling inability to make a trade that helps an area of the team without creating holes and potential disasters. One of our best trade chips this year didn't go towards a pitcher. We got David Freese a 3rd baseman. He's like the white Callaspo with inferior defense. So instead of keeping Bourjos' speed and superior defense while letting Hamilton DH, we will have a gap at DH/OF starting 2015 since Ibanez is an old guy who had a very deceiving 2013 season.

Edit: I forgot about shuck. I guess he can be our healthier poor man's bourjos. Hopefully he keeps up the good hitting.

With an injury/aging risk at 1st base we have no quality backup to regularly play that position if Albert were to get injured or even get the flu for a few days (don't say Howie) who would take his spot? Remember, DiPoto is the genius behind trading Kendrys Morales for Jason Vargas, another failure of a trade. Remember Jordan Walden? Remember when we dumped him for Tommy Hanson? I could go on, but you all know the story. Mark Trumbo was DiPoto's only logical trade but it's another trade that could have been avoided if the FO had foresightAnd it contributes to our potential DH/backup 1st problem.

DiPoto has butchered this team for years to come, we always end up much worse. Maybe I should blame Arte Moreno? Either way I dislike both of them immensely. The currently constructed team is not going to be able to make the playoffs, in my opinion.

We couldn't even make the playoffs in 2011/12 with Trumbo, Tori, Morales, Haren, Greinke, Bourjos, Santana, and a much better bullpen. What makes anyone think they can this year now that the AL West is tougher than ever? Our bullpen is still atrocious and the rotation is once again a big question mark because DiPoto never addressed the problem when he gave $150M to Hamilton instead of Greinke...you know, the trade that is the source of everything wrong with this team.

[nate]

Morales wouldn't be with this team anyway, he would have been a FA.  Bourjos couldn't bring us a pitcher because he is made of glass.

 

Also, his name is Dipoto, and Torii.

[Inside Pitch]

Nothing wrong with a good rant but....  The Angels would still be a pitcher short had they kept the two guys they traded away for Greinke.   John Hellweg and his 6.4 K/9 and 5.8 BB/9 in AAA isn't likely to help any MLB team anytime soon, particularly not an AL team -- he was atrocious in his brief call up last year.  Ariel Pena isn't much better.  He was still in AA age 24, and likewise still walking everyone and their brother only now he's also giving up HRs at twice the rate he did while in the Angels system.

 

Honestly, ranting about Dipoto and the lack of pitching seems out of place considering he pulled off a massive Houdini act and was able to get Santiago and Skaggs for Trumbo.

[Angelsjunky]

I've been critical of Jerry Dipoto and have disliked some of his trades. That said, it isn't so one-sided as you say and, this year especially, there's good logic behind his trades - yes, even Bourjos. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

 

The Infamous Greinke Trade

On the morning of July 27, 2012, the day Zach Greinke was acquired, the Angels were 54-45, 5 games out of first. They had a strong lineup but their rotation was struggling. Jered Weaver and CJ Wilson were both strong, but Ervin Santana was having an off year and Dan Haren was in obvious decline. Dipoto made a gamble that bringing in another ace-caliber pitcher would be enough to make it to the postseason. The Angels played well the rest of the year (35-28), but not well enough to catch the red-hot Athletics or the Rangers and they finished the season 5 games back. But it wasn't Greinke's fault who, after a rocky start, was very good down the stretch (3.53 ERA overall as an Angel).

 

The Angels gave up Jean Segura, who has turned into a very good shortstop for the Brewers, and two fringe pitching prospects: Ariel Pena and Johnny Hellweg. Pena has yet to play in the majors but has been solid in the minors and remains a fringe prospect, probably a back-end of the rotation starter or long reliever. Hellweg was terrible in 7 major league starts last year, walking 26 batters in 30.2 innings. While Segura is very good, even a borderline star, neither Hellweg or Pena will likely be anything more than #4-5 starters or long relievers.

 

Bourjos/Grichuk for Freese/Salas

I love Peter Bourjos, but this trade will probably help the Angels, at least in the short-term. Quite simply, Bourjos was extraneous. They didn't have a place for him in an outfield of Hamilton, Trout, and Calhoun - except as a super 4th outfielder. Dipoto tried to get good young pitching for him but no one bit. Freese gives the Angels a good player at a position that has been weak since Chone Figgins departed after 2009. I don't love the trade, but I can live with it.

 

Trumbo for Santiago, Skaggs

So here we have Dipoto trading a league average first baseman for a #4 starter (Santiago) and a potential #2-3 starter who is 22 years old. What's not to like here? Sure, Trumbo could mash in Arizona and just maybe will improve his plate discipline to become a bonafide star, but Skaggs could be the staff ace in a year or two and Santiago has tons of usefulness in a variety of roles. While I suspect Mark has a .270/.850, 40 HR season in him, the bottom line here is that you've got to give something up to get something of value, and the Angels traded from a strength to fill a desperate need.

 

Morales for Vargas

More of the same. Kendrys was extraneous. He might be a tad better than Trumbo as a hitter, but he didn't have the upside and was more expensive. So the Angels traded him for a consistent #4 starter, not a bad move.

 

Walden for Hanson

This didn't work out well, but it made sense at the time. Walden was an erratic reliever and Hanson was a former stud young pitcher. I suppose the mistake here was trading with a very savvy organization that wouldn't have traded Hanson if they thought he had a good chance of rebounding. Oh well.

 

The worst moves Dipoto has made weren't actually made by him: signing Pujols and Hamilton. Even if both rebound in 2014, both contracts are just awful, but Arte wanted them.

[DMVol]

What Junky said....except I still don't think Bourjos for Freese makes any sense....hold on to Bourjos and you might make a better deal later, when the FA market thins out.....very much reminds me of Edmonds to the Cards---we have an extra OF'er so let's make the best move we can....if the best move isn't a good one, don't do it.....wait....

Otherwise, I agree with Junky...other than Hanson and Blanton, not much I'm critical about...

[nate]

Blanton is by far Dipoto's worst move.

[Angelsjunky]

I actually agree with you, DMVol. If I could take Bourjos back I would, but my point is that it makes sense and actually improves the team in 2014.

[Chimi]

Our farm system sucked before Dipoto even got here.

[Inside Pitch]

Blanton is by far Dipoto's worst move.

 

Signing two RPs who couldn't throw and calling it mission accomplished was IMO significantly worse.

[Sherlock31]

What do you want Dipito to do?

 

His hands were all tied up by Pujols. Hamiton and Wells' contracts.

 

If you are the GM what can you do with limited budget, a depleted farm and many many holes(2 SP, 3rd, bullpen) to fill?

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sherlock31

[stormngt]

I've been critical of Jerry Dipoto and have disliked some of his trades. That said, it isn't so one-sided as you say and, this year especially, there's good logic behind his trades - yes, even Bourjos. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

 

The Infamous Greinke Trade

On the morning of July 27, 2012, the day Zach Greinke was acquired, the Angels were 54-45, 5 games out of first. They had a strong lineup but their rotation was struggling. Jered Weaver and CJ Wilson were both strong, but Ervin Santana was having an off year and Dan Haren was in obvious decline. Dipoto made a gamble that bringing in another ace-caliber pitcher would be enough to make it to the postseason. The Angels played well the rest of the year (35-28), but not well enough to catch the red-hot Athletics or the Rangers and they finished the season 5 games back. But it wasn't Greinke's fault who, after a rocky start, was very good down the stretch (3.53 ERA overall as an Angel).

 

The Angels gave up Jean Segura, who has turned into a very good shortstop for the Brewers, and two fringe pitching prospects: Ariel Pena and Johnny Hellweg. Pena has yet to play in the majors but has been solid in the minors and remains a fringe prospect, probably a back-end of the rotation starter or long reliever. Hellweg was terrible in 7 major league starts last year, walking 26 batters in 30.2 innings. While Segura is very good, even a borderline star, neither Hellweg or Pena will likely be anything more than #4-5 starters or long relievers.

 

Bourjos/Grichuk for Freese/Salas

I love Peter Bourjos, but this trade will probably help the Angels, at least in the short-term. Quite simply, Bourjos was extraneous. They didn't have a place for him in an outfield of Hamilton, Trout, and Calhoun - except as a super 4th outfielder. Dipoto tried to get good young pitching for him but no one bit. Freese gives the Angels a good player at a position that has been weak since Chone Figgins departed after 2009. I don't love the trade, but I can live with it.

 

Trumbo for Santiago, Skaggs

So here we have Dipoto trading a league average first baseman for a #4 starter (Santiago) and a potential #2-3 starter who is 22 years old. What's not to like here? Sure, Trumbo could mash in Arizona and just maybe will improve his plate discipline to become a bonafide star, but Skaggs could be the staff ace in a year or two and Santiago has tons of usefulness in a variety of roles. While I suspect Mark has a .270/.850, 40 HR season in him, the bottom line here is that you've got to give something up to get something of value, and the Angels traded from a strength to fill a desperate need.

 

Morales for Vargas

More of the same. Kendrys was extraneous. He might be a tad better than Trumbo as a hitter, but he didn't have the upside and was more expensive. So the Angels traded him for a consistent #4 starter, not a bad move.

 

Walden for Hanson

This didn't work out well, but it made sense at the time. Walden was an erratic reliever and Hanson was a former stud young pitcher. I suppose the mistake here was trading with a very savvy organization that wouldn't have traded Hanson if they thought he had a good chance of rebounding. Oh well.

 

The worst moves Dipoto has made weren't actually made by him: signing Pujols and Hamilton. Even if both rebound in 2014, both contracts are just awful, but Arte wanted them.

If Bourjos was the 4th Of than why did we need to sign Ibanez?

Stay with the propoganda long enough people will begin to believe it.

[Inside Pitch]

FTR, If the Angels were in the same position to do the Greinke trade again, I'd do it.  Pena and Hellweg were prospects only due the lack of talent in the system.   The trade wasn't a failure, the weak attempt to re-sign him was.

[Blarg]

What Junky said....except I still don't think Bourjos for Freese makes any sense....hold on to Bourjos and you might make a better deal later, when the FA market thins out.....very much reminds me of Edmonds to the Cards---we have an extra OF'er so let's make the best move we can....if the best move isn't a good one, don't do it.....wait....

Otherwise, I agree with Junky...other than Hanson and Blanton, not much I'm critical about...

Stoneman waited as long as he could before trading Edmonds, all the way into spring training. It did not help get him a better package.

[Inside Pitch]

Stoneman waited as long as he could before trading Edmonds, all the way into spring training. It did not help get him a better package.

 

Thats not what happened actually...  

[Blarg]

If Bourjos was the 4th Of than why did we need to sign Ibanez?

Stay with the propoganda long enough people will begin to believe it.

Ibanez is signed to be a DH and will probably never use his glove again. Shuck is the 4th outfielder.

[YouthofToday]

Take out The Albert Pujols and Hamilton.

The Grienke trade was by far Dipoto's worse move. The lost value from Blanton's deal pales in comparison to the lost value Segura has/had.

Arte deserves more blame than Dipoto.

[Blarg]

Thats not what happened actually...

I'm on a tablet and was being brief. Stoneman had no desire to trade Edmonds but Tavares wanted to dump most of the Angels young core in a fit of rage. Edmonds was traded at the end of March and Tavares had spoiled Edminds value by being vical in the press (probably why Stoneman spoke so little to the press later) but by waiting on the order to teade Edmonds he did get less than full value in trade.

Essentially waiting didn't help the Angels in that instance but firing Tavares after 1999 would have.

[Inside Pitch]

I'm on a tablet and was being brief. Stoneman had no desire to trade Edmonds but Tavares wanted to dump most of the Angels young core in a fit of rage. Edmonds was traded at the end of March and Tavares had spoiled Edminds value by being vical in the press (probably why Stoneman spoke so little to the press later) but by waiting on the order to teade Edmonds he did get less than full value in trade.

Essentially waiting didn't help the Angels in that instance but firing Tavares after 1999 would have.

 

I know this, and all the things that were stated publicly.   Ultimately it didn't factor into the decision to move him.  Check your PM.  

Best thing about Stoneman was he essentially made Tavares a non-entity.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Angelsjunky]

If Bourjos was the 4th Of than why did we need to sign Ibanez?

Stay with the propoganda long enough people will begin to believe it.

 

The Angels signed Ibanez to replace Trumbo, not Bourjos. My guess is that Dipoto went to the winter meetings not with the idea "I gotta trade Trumbo no matter what," but rather "I gotta get the best deal for pitching I can get without trading Trout." He would have happily traded Kendrick or even Bourjos, but when he sat down with his old buddy Kevin Towers it was Trumbo that Towers wanted and no one else was offering anything better.

 

As for propaganda, if you think I buy into it then you obviously haven't been reading anything I've written in the past few years that we've both been posting on this board. Come one, Storm.

 

Take out The Albert Pujols and Hamilton.

The Grienke trade was by far Dipoto's worse move. The lost value from Blanton's deal pales in comparison to the lost value Segura has/had.

Arte deserves more blame than Dipoto.

 

I disagree on Greinke. I remember at the time thinking it was a good trade that would either be very good if Greinke signed with the Angels, or just OK if he didn't. I like Segura, but he hasn't proven (yet) that he's better than Erick Aybar - his 2013 season looked like a good Aybar season, his 3.4 fWAR just below Aybar's best three seasons (3.6, 3.7, 3.9). Segura probably will get better, but remember that he was amazing for the first couple months then mediocre for the last two-thirds of the year, so it remains to be seen how good he'll actually be.

 

Anyhow, the point being that while Segura is a good player, let's not overrate him too quickly.

[Angels Never Die]

In regards to this off-season, even though I hated the Bourjos deal because it was completely underselling him (and they seemingly threw Ghrichuk in unnecessarily,) but what I'm disappointed in is that they're not trying to trade Howie.  You don't trade Howie just because you need pitching, you trade him because it's the right time, he's overvalued in the league because he's a second baseman and he's good at overrated stats, and we have replacements for him.  Does he not understand this?

[Inside Pitch]

In regards to this off-season, even though I hated the Bourjos deal because it was completely underselling him (and they seemingly threw Ghrichuk in unnecessarily,) but what I'm disappointed in is that they're not trying to trade Howie.  You don't trade Howie just because you need pitching, you trade him because it's the right time, he's overvalued in the league because he's a second baseman and he's good at overrated stats, and we have replacements for him.  Does he not understand this?

 

That's why you trade him at the ASB when there aren't options available for just money and when some of the options that have been signed fail to match his production.   

 

Holding on to Howie is in the best interest of the team at least until Lindsey or someone is actually able to replace him.  Grant Green wasn't that guy -- his defense would have hurt the team.   In keeping Howie they aid the run prevention and production.  He gives them the best chance to win and stands to be their best chip at the break should the team fall flat on it's face.

 

I think the biggest test in Dipoto's tenure will come at the break.  

 

I've been criticial of Dipoto.  I don't believe he's as innocent of some of the bad moves as others who pawn everyone on Arte, but I'll say this much.  If this team were to tank and fail miserably and he pulled off another Trumbo type trade or two -- he should be given the opportunity to build on those moves.  I question whether or not he's got the backbone to stand up to a guy like Arte and ultimately that may be his undoing.  

Edited December 23, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[DMVol]

Stoneman waited as long as he could before trading Edmonds, all the way into spring training. It did not help get him a better package.

Then he should have held on to him until the trade deadline in July, rotated the 4 OF'ers through the DH spot until you get a better package ....dumb move, by a GM who was otherwise very successful.....and while I don't think Bourjos is going to be another Edmonds, it has the same feel to it....very mechanical thinking--we have 4th OF'ers so we have to trade one....no, you don't...at least not until you get a decent package in return...Freese is Kent Botenfield Part 2....veteran guy who had an otherwise mediocre career except for one career year (and one postseason, in Freese's case).....

[Angels Never Die]

That's why you trade him at the ASB when there aren't options available for just money and when some of the options that have been signed fail to match his production.   

 

Holding on to Howie was in the best interest of the team at least until Lindsey or someone is actually able to replace him.  Grant Green wasn't that guy -- his defense would have hurt the team.   In keeping Howie they aid the run prevention and production.  He gives them the best chance to win and stands to be their best chip at the break should the team fall flat on it's face.

 

I think the biggest test in Dipoto's tenure will come at the break.  

 

I've been criticial of Dipoto.  I don't believe he's as innocent of some of the bad moves as others who pawn everyone on Arte, but I'll say this much.  If this team were to tank and fail miserably and he pulled off another Trumbo type trade or two -- he should be given the opportunity to build on those moves.  I question whether or not he's got the backbone to stand up to a guy like Arte and ultimately that may be his undoing.  

 

I think If you wait until the all-star break, you risk his perceived value dropping. Besides, I don't think he's as good as you're making him out to be.

[Inside Pitch]

I think If you wait until the all-star break, you risk his perceived value dropping. Besides, I don't think he's as good as you're making him out to be.

 

He's better than Grant Green in every possible way.   A three WAR player signed for another year is likely to have more value at the break unless he completely craters.  Considering how this off-season has gone $$$ wise, I'm betting a lot of guys with team friendly contracts will see their values rise.

[Angelsjunky]

In regards to this off-season, even though I hated the Bourjos deal because it was completely underselling him (and they seemingly threw Ghrichuk in unnecessarily,) but what I'm disappointed in is that they're not trying to trade Howie.  You don't trade Howie just because you need pitching, you trade him because it's the right time, he's overvalued in the league because he's a second baseman and he's good at overrated stats, and we have replacements for him.  Does he not understand this?

 

I think he does but there has to be the right fit - no one was taking.

 

Its really too bad that the Royals signed Omar Infante. Howie Kendrick seems like a classic Kansas City Royal, who would thrive in a low pressure situation.