My thoughts right now

[albertoverpay723]

Let me preface this message with this opening statement: I am a lifelong Angels fan. I created this account this morning with the intent of interacting with fellow Angel fans, and sharing my thoughts and opinions on the current state of the franchise. Okay, so, with all that said, we are the laughingstock of baseball right now. 

 

Throughout history, teams have tried to buy championships. More often than not, they are unsuccessful. The Dodgers are the most recent example, as last off-season they spent a record amount of money while putting their team together. Although they went on an extremely notable mid-season run, they ultimately fell short of the World Series.

 

We, however, tried to buy a championship, not only unsuccessfully, but is blew up in our faces. During the latter half of 2011, we all began to hear whispers of the upcoming FA Albert Pujols, who was seemingly on track to be one of the all-time greats. Well, we gave him the contract he wanted, and he bleeped us real good. Only two years in and this is already looking like the worst contract ever. On the same day we signed "El Hombre", we signed CJ "I put more work into my douchebag hair commercials than actual pitching" Wilson. At the time we looked like geniuses, and now we look like idiots.

 

Then, we signed Josh Hamilton. Okay, from a division rival, a great hitter, whatever, so we thought that would work out. Nope. His contract looks just as bad as Albert's. Maybe less so, becuase it is not as long, but still, it is pretty bad.

 

DiPoto may be the worst in baseball. He traded our number 2 prospect and a solid CF for the ghost of David Freese and a mediocre relief pitcher. I fail to see how this benefits us AT ALL. Freese can't hit, can't defend, and can't stay healthy. We got fleeced so bad in that trade.

 

Our lone bright spot, obviously, is Mike Trout. Kids a monster. I'm sure DiPoto will sign him for 8 years, 250 million, and he'll turn into Rick Ankiel.

 

Congrats to us on retroactively winning the 2011 World Series. Maybe we can sign Furcal, and hope it's not to late to offer Kyle Calhoun or Mark Trumbo for Skip Schumaker.

 

[Angelsjunky]

Welcome to the board. I hear your frustration and agree with the gist of it - the organization is flailing and Dipoto's track record has not been good.

 

That said, while I'm not a fan of the Freese trade I don't agree with your characterization. First of all, Grichuk was not our #2 prospect. Most lists I've seen have him more in the #7-10 range and see him as a future average regular.

 

Secondly, Freese was very good as of 2012, so one bad year and I'm not quite ready to call him a "ghost" that "can't hit."

 

If everything breaks right, Freese will return to his 2011-12 form and Salas will be closer to 2011 than 2013 and the Angels will be better in 2014 than if they hadn't made the trade. Even so, I still don't like it because I love Bourjos and don't think the Angels should be trading for older players at this point. But in the short-term the Angels could benefit from this trade.

[Inside Pitch]

 

 

First of all, Grichuk was not our #2 prospect. Most lists I've seen have him more in the #7-10 range and see him as a future average regular.

 

Secondly, Freese was very good as of 2012, so one bad year and I'm not quite ready to call him a "ghost" that "can't hit."

 

If everything breaks right, Freese will return to his 2011-12 form and Salas will be closer to 2011 than 2013 and the Angels will be better in 2014 than if they hadn't made the trade. Even so, I still don't like it because I love Bourjos and don't think the Angels should be trading for older players at this point. But in the short-term the Angels could benefit from this trade.

 

John Manuel, editor of BBA was quoted as saying he was the Angels #2 behind Lindsey.     So, he's not wrong, he just has the most up to date information.

 

I really believed the Angels had moved beyond the days of "If everything breaks right" types of trades post Bill Bavasi.   Sad we are back to those days.

 

I do agree the Angels should be okay short term.

[Hubs]

If you've learned anything by other DiPoto moves it's that you can't judge them in November. We all thought Pujols would hit like he did in St. Louis (I still think he will at least come close to those numbers). We all thought Josh Hamilton was a good move. Freese move was not looked at as under a rosy of a light. 

 

I will say, his pitching moves have left a lot to be desired. But so did Reagins' moves. Only CJ Wilson has been a solid move, as I guess signing Jerome Williams has as well.

[CardsFanVegas]

I think Albert is going to perform.

 

Yes a slow start in 2012, but after the middle of May he was fine.

 

2013 he was dealing with the foot condition.

 

2014, his foot is all healed up.  He's been here a couple years.  I predict he is going to win Comeback Player of the Year and really tear it up.  That won't make the contract any better in year 8,9,10.. but I think the Halos will get some good years out of him.

 

And you say that Freese can't stay healthy, and its true he has been on the DL a good bit.   2012 was the first year he played a full season in the MLB.   2013 he played most of the season but started off on the DL.   But he was traded for a guy who also has a history of not staying healthy.   The trade was a low risk deal that moved guys who were going to be platoon players on their former teams to a place where they can be everyday players.  Especially Freese.

[AngelsAndRamsFan]

If you've learned anything by other DiPoto moves it's that you can't judge them in November. We all thought Pujols would hit like he did in St. Louis (I still think he will at least come close to those numbers). We all thought Josh Hamilton was a good move. Freese move was not looked at as under a rosy of a light. 

 

I will say, his pitching moves have left a lot to be desired. But so did Reagins' moves. Only CJ Wilson has been a solid move, as I guess signing Jerome Williams has as well.

I and a lot of other people didn't like the Hamilton signing. 

 

 Williams was with the Angels before Dipoto arrived. 

[HaloCory22]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you might be mad about something?

[wopphil]

We are a Matt Garza signing away from being a good team.

[Ordos]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you might be mad about something?

New Coke?

[405z06]

The problem the Angels have at the moment, is that even if everything break right next year (Pujols is Cardinal-era Pujols, Trout is still Trout, Hamilton is Ranger-era hamilton), they still don't have the pitching to do much with it. It would be one helluva fun offense to watch, though.

[Corona]

What an original thread, we could really use more like this.

[Second Base]

Also, C.J. can film as many hair commercials as he wants, as long as he puts up numbers like he did last year, I don't mind at all.  He's actually not nearly the douche I thought he was when he was in Texas.  I know it's a really "homer" thing to say, but Wilson's actually not a bad dude.  While he's on the mound or in the stadium he's focused solely on baseball.  Away from the stadium he keeps himself busy. 

[sneaky_flute]

CJ Wilson seems like a nice guy but he has definitely made some douchey comments about the A's stadium and balls at Rangers ballpark and I'm sure there's been more. With that said, I prefer his brand of douchiness to that of someone like Josh Donaldson who goes around saying opposing players suck.

Edited November 27, 2013 by sneaky_flute

[Brent Maguire]

We are a Matt Garza signing and Pujols/Hamilton rebound away from being a good team.

Fixed

[Docwaukee]

you can buy championships.  or at least a very good team.  it's not necessarily smart to proceed that way however.  Especially when it leads to lost draft picks.  Couple that with trading away a bunch of prospects and getting very little in return and you end up where the halos currently sit.  A bad farm system and several bloated salaries from players that haven't been overly productive if at all. 

 

Free agent signing and spending money is not the devil however.  They can be done thoughtfully and appropriately with a realistic expectation of production and marketability. 

 

Gutting your farm system for immediate gain is the devil.  That is where team truly get themselves into the most trouble and that is why the Halos have a problem.  Not because they have big contracts, but because they have no backup. 

 

The Halos have averaged a top 5 payroll for the last 10 years.  They made the playoffs in 5 of six years and then missed it the last 4. 

 

Their playoff runs were driven by pitching, defense and their farm system with a couple of their FA signings working out.  They had depth and an element of balance. 

 

No team is perfect.  There are going to be holes. 

 

I like to view any major league team as having four major components of production. 

1. SP

2. Offense

3. Defense

4. Bullpen

 

One of those can be pretty weak if the others are good to very good.  Two can be average if two others are very good etc.

 

Last year was a disaster of epic proportions.  We had two of the worst starting pitchers in baseball and injuries combined to expose some of the most horrible depth of any team in the majors which essentially gave us the combined effect of a 3rd starting pitcher that was one of the worst in baseball. 

 

The good news is that just about anyone with a pulse is gonna improve the SP of this team.  With a few additional patches, they are competitive.

 

Is this team setup beyond next year?  No, and that's the biggest problem.  If they are going to stay in the mix, it's going to take significant duct tape, crazy glue, and WD40 on a yearly basis and that is a recipe for large swings in outcomes.  So until they fix the farm system, this team is going to need constant revamping from year to year.  ie, we are gonna see personnel changes somewhere between tweaking and rebuilding for the next 5 years. 

[Blarg]

Let me preface this message with this opening statement: I am a lifelong Angels fan. I created this account this morning with the intent of interacting with fellow Angel fans, and sharing my thoughts and opinions on the current state of the franchise. Okay, so, with all that said, we are the laughingstock of baseball right now. 

 

 

When there are teams perennially in the cellar every season and ownership like Jeffery Loria in Miami, your opening statement holds no water. Your first thread and you blew all credibility by the second sentence.  

 

Of course that doesn't mean you won't have a following here.

[70runner]

Beyond Trout and a couple SPs, it boils down to lotsa hope and needed change. Hope that Pujols and Hamilton somehow return to previous form, becoming more and more unlikely as they slide down the mid 30s ravine.  Even if Pujols starts hitting again, the guy is a slug on defense and the base paths.  At least Hamilton can still run and play D, tho he's basically an out walking to the plate against LHP.  Freese, yet another 30s guy saddled with the hope he rebounds tag.

 

Change must come, the most obvious area being SP of course, but also in the gutted farm system.  Must get younger.  This franchise could benefit from a field management change, the current regime has become stale and unproductive.  Plz no more long term manager contracts.

[Angel Oracle]

We are a Matt Garza AND TANAKA signingS away from being a good team.

Fixed.

[Marsaka]

When there are teams perennially in the cellar every season and ownership like Jeffery Loria in Miami, your opening statement holds no water. Your first thread and you blew all credibility by the second sentence.  

 

Of course that doesn't mean you won't have a following here.

 

At least Jeffrey Loria can recognize when the ship is sinking and tries and rebuilds through younger guys.  Our ship has been sinking for 5 years and yet we keep making big free agent signings and horrible trades that have gutted the teams future for another 5 years.  

 

All for not, we cant even come close to making the playoffs even with a 2nd wild card.

[Inside Pitch]

At least Jeffrey Loria can recognize when the ship is sinking and tries and rebuilds through younger guys.  Our ship has been sinking for 5 years and yet we keep making big free agent signings and horrible trades that have gutted the teams future for another 5 years.  

 

All for not, we cant even come close to making the playoffs even with a 2nd wild card.

 

LOL, yeah because a fan base that has seemingly always had an inferiority complex, first to the Dodgers, then to the beasts from the East, was really going to say -- "Okay, Arte, you know what's right and it's time to rebuild."

 

I know for a fact there are more than a few fans here that would have been accepting of a total rebuild scenario, but the vast majority were all about signing that ONE piece and calling out ownership for being simply content with "winning the division".  The amount of whining anytime a FA picked the Yankees or Bosox was comical.  Hell, I remember people whining about the team winning but never doing a wire to wire type season where they blew out the competition, and even after it was clear the Angels outclassed the division there were many that called out ownership for not willing to take what it took, to "take the next step".  

 

Angels fans grew accustomed to winning, so much so that there were lots of people that went on record as saying any season that didnt end with a WS championship was a failure -- few would have been willing to see a Marlins type fire-sale after 2009 in hopes of competing down the road, to argue otherwise is completely horseshit.  Angels fans wanted big FA splashes and HR hitters, those pitching and defense teams were deemed boring and incapable of winning it all.   Well, they got their wish.

 

The Angels are reaping what they sowed.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[mtangelsfan]

LOL, yeah because a fan base that has seemingly always had an inferiority complex, first to the Dodgers, then to the beasts from the East, was really going to say -- "Okay, Arte, you know what's right and it's time to rebuild."

 

I know for a fact there are more than a few fans here that would have been accepting of a total rebuild scenario, but the vast majority were all about signing that ONE piece and calling own ownership for being simply content with "winning the division".  The amount of whining anytime a FA picked the Yankees or Bosox was comical.  Hell, I remember people whining about the team winning but never doing a wire to wire type season where they blew out the competition, and even after it was clear the Angels outclassed the division there were many that called out ownership for not willing to take what it took, to "take the next step".  

 

Angels fans grew accustomed to winning, so much so that there were lots of people that went on record as saying any season that didnt end with a WS championship was a failure -- few would have been willing to see a Marlins type fire-sale after 2009 in hopes of competing down the road, to argue otherwise is completely horseshit.  Angels fans wanted big FA splashes and HR hitters, those pitching and defense teams were deemed boring and incapable of winning it all.   Well, they got their wish.

 

The Angels are reaping what they sowed.

 

This is so very true.  This is why so many fans called for Stoneman's head.  They kept arguing he couldn't take them to the "next" level.

[tdawg87]

I know things look crappy but I don't think baseball teams are always "guaranteed" to compete and make the postseason. A lot of teams have to "hope things work out". Just look at Boston this year, and the A's.

Last year everything that could have gone wrong did. I think things are bound to go the other way eventually.

[redoctober]

I think it is a bit short sighted to say that the Angels tried to buy a championship. Let me explain.

 

When Dipoto took over the team we had...

 

1. The worst lower farm system in baseball. Remember, at this time we had no overseas presence due to our mismanagement.

2. A higher farm system that was graduating one guaranteed stud (Trout), one promising stud (Trumbo), and one possible stud (Bourjos)

3. A few solid players (e.g. Aybar, Kendrick, Callaspo, Izturis)

4. A good aging player (Hunter) and a terrible aging player (Wells)

5. A semi-young stud pitcher, an aging stud pitcher, and an inconsistent pitcher - and no young depth (poor Dipoto has only his younger self to blame for that, ha) outside of Richards. (Chatwood doesn't count)

 

Now I have no experience in professional sports, but I would assume that they had two options:

 

1. Keep the team as is and start rebuilding the farm system, hoping that it will start providing depth in 3-4 years.

2. Bring in free agents to keep the team competitive while rebuilding the farm system.

 

Two additional observations that are important:

 

1. We had failed in free agency since Vlad and Bartolo. (ex. Crawford, Texeira, etc.)

2. The LA entertainment market was changing with the Dodgers looking to sell to someone with deep pockets and the baseball market was changing with huge TV contracts

 

Because this team is a business, Arte and Dipoto had to make a decision based not just on winning but running a successful business in a very competitive market.

 

1. So they signed Pujols and Wilson (Vlad and Bartolo 2.0), cementing their ability to sign a huge tv deal and exciting a region that has a lot of entertainment options and popularity contest issues.

2. They avoided other star pitchers because all but one have failed with their new teams (CC). Which is exactly why they wouldn't pay Greinke.

3. With no minor league depth to trade from, they had to sign older pitchers and trade for damaged goods, hoping that they would turn it around and keep producing.

(#2 and #3 are moneyball-like moves, market inefficiencies. Free agent star pitchers are overvalued, old and damaged pitchers are undervalued.)

 

Now, I understand that the Angels haven't been competitive outside of a few runs both years, but they had, and have, a better chance of being competitive with the team they have now than with the team they would have had. All the while they are rebuilding their farm system to restock once Weaver, Hamilton, Aybar, Kendrick, Wilson, etc. are starting to slide.

 

- Ultimately I think the current state of the team can be summed up as such:

 

1. Bad farm system Inherited by Dipoto

2. A bad free agent market with aging stars and nothing to build with.

Edited November 27, 2013 by redoctober

[ettin]

I know things look crappy but I don't think baseball teams are always "guaranteed" to compete and make the postseason. A lot of teams have to "hope things work out". Just look at Boston this year, and the A's.

Last year everything that could have gone wrong did. I think things are bound to go the other way eventually.

 

Go Team Angels BABIP!!!!

[Brent Maguire]

Inside Pitch said it perfectly.

I thought this team just needed to possibly trade away some proven talent for young prospects in 2010 but the front office didn't have the same idea. The Haren trade clearly sent the idea that this team wasn't going to rebuild anytime soon and was going to retool the roster to stay competitive.

And I had no issues with it then and still don't now. Some rebuilding processes work but some teams never get out of that rebuilding time. Granted, we have more resources to go out and make the moves compared to teams like the Pirates and Royals who couldn't make high salary moves to help the team.

I can't disagree with what the front office did. Rebuilding would've meant less fans coming out to the games and I don't think Arte and company wanted to mess around with that.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Angels_Baseball