How to realistically encourage a return to "play like it's 1985"

[Junkballer]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Nice post.

I think there's a fallacy here, though, that it is either TTO or smallball. And perhaps a second one, that smallball can't compete (if done well).

For the latter, the case in point is the 2014-15 Royals, which lost a seven game World Series and then won the next, with a very smallball/80s approach, and they didn't have a big base-stealer, just a bunch of guys who could play hit-and-run, and of course their secret weapon, Jarrod Dyson. I'll never forget how they won a WS game by getting a single, pinch-running Dyson, and then him stealing his way to a run. Kendrys Morales led the 2015 team with 22 HR and a .485 SLG. But they knew how to manufacture runs, and had very good pitching, especially their bullpen. 

Yes, TTO is what has proven to score more runs over the course of a season, but I think teams have become overly reliant on it, as if there is only one way to succeed. But more to the point, a team can be based in TTO, but still learn a bit of smallball. Or any variation, really, as long as it is done well.

Meaning, I don't think TTO is the problem as much as teams thinking it is the only way, that there aren't other paths to building a good ball team, including hybrid approaches. 

For instance, I'd love to see an offense built on OBP and speed. It would score a ton of runs and be a lot of fun to watch.

Oh for sure it's not either/or.  If the premise that TTO has become prevalent to the point of making the game less interesting is true, and that is not a universal opinion, then it is in MLB's best interest to improve their product.  They don't dislike big HR numbers but they should be concerned with the reduction in on-base action in between those HRs.  

My thought is that TTO is, among other things, safer for GM's to build a team around and fans would benefit from them being encouraged through MLB action to seeing the advantages of a more balanced approach.

[AngelsLakersFan]

33 minutes ago, Junkballer said:

Oh for sure it's not either/or.  If the premise that TTO has become prevalent to the point of making the game less interesting is true, and that is not a universal opinion, then it is in MLB's best interest to improve their product.  They don't dislike big HR numbers but they should be concerned with the reduction in on-base action in between those HRs.  

My thought is that TTO is, among other things, safer for GM's to build a team around and fans would benefit from them being encouraged through MLB action to seeing the advantages of a more balanced approach.

Something interesting that I noticed this year was the lack of bunting in extra innings. It's such an obvious play for the home team down one run or tied in almost all situations, but you didn't actually see it that often. I think it's because every player is a homerun guy now, no one actually knows how to bunt so it's not a good play. Those are the unintended consequences.

[Angelsjunky]

39 minutes ago, Junkballer said:

Oh for sure it's not either/or.  If the premise that TTO has become prevalent to the point of making the game less interesting is true, and that is not a universal opinion, then it is in MLB's best interest to improve their product.  They don't dislike big HR numbers but they should be concerned with the reduction in on-base action in between those HRs.  

My thought is that TTO is, among other things, safer for GM's to build a team around and fans would benefit from them being encouraged through MLB action to seeing the advantages of a more balanced approach.

My sense is the only way out of "TTO Fundamentalism" is for someone to prove that there are other ways. I would have thought that would be the case after the Royals in 2014-15, but it wasn't to be, at least not yet. It is more systemic, with young players learning to loft the ball and thinking their only path to the majors is hitting home runs. 

That said, baseball does change. TTO fundamentalism will likely soften. It is just still the latest thing. 

[Docwaukee]

What's so special about 1985? 

The league batting average was .257 so it's not like teams were tearing it up.  There were about 1500 more stolen base attempts so about 1 every two games.  There was .006 difference in OBP.  Is it just because there were fewer strikeouts?  Maybe I'm an outlier here but I don't want to watch guys ground out weakly any more than I want to watch them strikeout.  

Maybe most will disagree with this, but I feel like high exit velo contact is more of one of the TTO's than a hr.  And I don't think that's going away regardless of what you do with the fences or the ball.  The emphasis is still gonna be on hitting the ball hard.  And as long as that is the case then hitters are going to continue to sell out on every swing and pitchers are going to continue to keep guys from making that hard contact and the best way to do that is to try to throw 100 mphs and make the guy miss.  

I say juice the ball and make the plate (ie the strike zone) bigger.  Make guys swing more but make it such they can just make contact with a normal swing to get a hit.  And I agree with making the bases bigger.  Get guys running more.  

[failos]

I wish I could never hear/see this stupid phrase again. It’s utterly idiotic. Play like it’s 2021/22 pls. Nobody gives a shit about 1985.

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Are you trying to reduce homeruns or are you trying to reduce exit velocities and travel distances? The real problem is that for the majority of players the expected value of a flyable is considerably higher than the expected value of a ground ball.  They need to find a way to reduce the value of fly balls while increasing the value of ground balls. Messing with the ball can help but you are still moving the two hit types together in the same direction.

Have been thinking this for a while now.

Does anyone know what came first, launch angles or the shift? It seems like "launch angle" isnt so much to put the ball over the fence, but over the infield. Ground balls, unless hit the other way, are basically automatic outs now.

I read something a few weeks back. It said its basically impossible to do anything with an inside fastball other than pull it. And that pitch it essentially thrown to contact, and everyone does it now, to get guys to hit in the shift.

I dont know if thats true or not, but it would make sense as to why hitters are trying to elevate everything now instead of just hitting it straight

[ten ocho recon scout]

55 minutes ago, failos said:

 Nobody gives a shit about 1985.

Tell that to Huey Lewis

 

[HanfordGuy]

1 hour ago, failos said:

I wish I could never hear/see this stupid phrase again. It’s utterly idiotic. Play like it’s 2021/22 pls. Nobody gives a shit about 1985.

[arch stanton]

Moving backwards isn't happening and 1985 is probably not a great example. The whole league was still coked up. I think the baseball we all grew up watching has been obsoleted by analytics and changes in equipment and player training. And batters aren't fearing the ball like they used to. Plate diving is an accepted practice. Specialization means highly evolved but limited skills are taking over. 

You can try to make the infields faster, maybe deaden the ball and slightly raise the seams to encourage movement over velocity. If you go back and look at the 90's the strike zone was called lower and wider. That might help.

[ScottT]

15 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I would like to see MLB deaden the ball more and put further limits on the number of pitchers you can have on your roster. 
 

These have to happen together.

If a team needed to get through a game with 2-3 pitchers instead of 4-5, the pitchers would have to be more efficient and pitch to contact. They could pitch to contact more easily if they weren’t worried so much about homers. 
 

The biggest problem in MLB, IMO, is there are too many pitches where nothing happens. Walks and strikeouts both stink.

Throw the ball over the plate and let them put it in play. 

I don’t think this would happen overnight, but I’d like to see the game move in that direction. 

I kinda like the pitcher limit idea.   I'd rather them just limit the amount of time... or times... you can shuttle someone back and forth from the minors.  

[ScottT]

As far as the 1985 thing goes.  I think it's nonsense.  Maybe a ploy to Tshirts for his charity.

Who cares

[Stradling]

I think the limit of pitchers on a roster is coming.  I read an article about Theo Epstein and his role with MLB and he sounded like it will be tiered where they’ll be allowed 13 one season and eventually get it to 11 or 12.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

11 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Moving backwards isn't happening and 1985 is probably not a great example. The whole league was still coked up. 

Maybe thats what Joe wants, though. Hes sick of guys trying to be patient and wait on home runs. Hed rather they be really jittery, paranoid, and happy.

https://memes.yarn.co/yarn-clip/22f084b9-a3ab-4835-86b4-2fe0cfa96fe7

[UndertheHalo]

I see that this thread is still here and I didn’t hallucinate it.  This sucks a lot.

[Taylor]

1985 is the year before 1986. 

F'ing Maddon

[angelsnationtalk]

Please don't deaden the ball more or consider dimension changes. 

I'd say a fair tactic for it is give the pitchers the grip they want on the ball. 

That way both sides of baseball can have an edge. Let the ball spin like crazy and let it fly like crazy.

[Revad]

The new CBA is going to be a huge project, I hope both sides come together.

[arch stanton]

1 hour ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Please don't deaden the ball more or consider dimension changes. 

I'd say a fair tactic for it is give the pitchers the grip they want on the ball. 

That way both sides of baseball can have an edge. Let the ball spin like crazy and let it fly like crazy.

More strikeouts and more home runs.

yay

[T.G.]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:36 PM, Dochalo said:

What's so special about 1985?

I was 36 years younger!

[eaterfan]

I was born in the mid 80s and didn't really get into baseball until around 1991. All I've ever heard about in my entire lifetime is how much better baseball used to be back in the day, except for one period of my life. That was the mid 90s. I seem to recall people loved it (except the strike). They used to trash the 80s and the low scoring nature of games. Were those people wrong about 80s baseball? Did I miss something awesome or are people just nostalgic for something different?

I swear the biggest problem with baseball is that they keep putting guys on TV who hate baseball. Guys are out there throwing gas with breaking balls that are on a string. Shortstops can hit the ball 480 feet! People should be excited about this. When I was a kid the second baseman and shortstop were auto out so often. It's like if basketball spent so much time on each broadcast talking about how awesome 90s-early 2000s basketball was. You know what we need more of? Throwing it down into the post where a guy tries to back someone down and then throws it out to someone who can't hit an outside jumper. Or we get a guy taking 20 dribbles trying to break someone down only to launch a fall away jumper as the clock expires. We have 7 foot guys who can dribble, pass, and shoot from anywhere! The ball is constantly moving, it's awesome! Get guys in the booth who actually like watching guys throw great pitches, make amazing defensive plays, and hit the ball to the moon instead of trying to take us back to 1985.

[Blarg]

If all that happens without every batter in a 3-2 count then the game is more fun. 

[T.G.]

 

[Stradling]

12 hours ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Please don't deaden the ball more or consider dimension changes. 

I'd say a fair tactic for it is give the pitchers the grip they want on the ball. 

That way both sides of baseball can have an edge. Let the ball spin like crazy and let it fly like crazy.

So much no in this opinion.