Dodgers Young Pitching

[Angelsjunky]

They've got some good young pitchers, no? How does a perennial contender assemble such a group of young arms?

Walker Buehler - Draft (1st round, 24th pick)

Dustin May - draft (3rd round)

Julio Urias - international signing

Brusdar Graterol - trade

Tony Gonsolin - draft (9th round)

Caleb Ferguson - draft (38th round)

Victor Gonzalez - international signing

That's a nice assortment of young arms, all age 26 or younger this year. Only one is a 1st rounder - and he was drafted 24th.

I'm tempted to ask the rhetorical question: how do the Dodgers do this and why can't the Angels? The easy answer is scouting and player development, two areas the Dodgers excel at and the Angels have had mixed results in.

I hope Morosi is right, and the next GM focuses on internal development and tries to emulate teams like the Dodgers.

[halofanfare]

It's depressing to see isn't it? I always knew they would become the Tampa Bay Rays of the NL when Andrew Friedman took over, but better than Tampa Bay cause they have unlimited money. The Dodgers are basically the Rays + star power.

[Chuck]

6 minutes ago, halofanfare said:

It's depressing to see isn't it? I always knew they would become the Tampa Bay Rays of the NL when Andrew Friedman took over, but better than Tampa Bay cause they have unlimited money. The Dodgers are basically the Rays + star power.

This would make a World Series victory for the Rays over the Dodgers even sweeter. 

[rafibomb]

It's insane. We can only hope we have our own version of young quality pitchers coming up with the next wave in Detmers, Rodriguez, Soriano, Yan and, further down the road, Kochanowicz.

[UndertheHalo]

The answer is obviously that they get way more out of their development process than basically any other team in baseball. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

The answer is obviously that they get way more out of their development process than basically any other team in baseball. 

And the reason for that is they have invested the most in their analytics and player development than anyone else in MLB.  This is where Arte falls short despite having improved a great deal under Eppler.

[rafibomb]

19 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

And the reason for that is they have invested the most in their analytics and player development than anyone else in MLB.  This is where Arte falls short despite having improved a great deal under Eppler.

Do you think then that Arte and the organization would have been better off just investing more in analytics and player development and keeping Eppler? Or do you think, based off of the list of names rumored to interview, we are taking one step closer towards the goal.

[Inside Pitch]

25 minutes ago, rafibomb said:

Do you think then that Arte and the organization would have been better off just investing more in analytics and player development and keeping Eppler? Or do you think, based off of the list of names rumored to interview, we are taking one step closer towards the goal.

Whatever gets us greater investment in player development and analytics will end up being the best move in the long run.   A great GM would be a wonderful thing to have, great infrastructure would be even better.

[NrM]

58 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

And the reason for that is they have invested the most in their analytics and player development than anyone else in MLB.  This is where Arte falls short despite having improved a great deal under Eppler.

Except the farmsystem and player development hasn't improved under Eppler. Obviously too soon to conclude, but there's not much to indicate it improved much if at all.

The false narrative that you and others love to give Eppler credit for is pretty darn annoying. There's no proof. The farmsystem is still rated near the bottom by almost every metric/ranking I've seen. There's no one close to being ready either, outside of Adell.

 

You love to blame Dipoto and then give Eppler a pass for the same issues plaguing this organization.

[Warfarin]

4 hours ago, NrM said:

Except the farmsystem and player development hasn't improved under Eppler. Obviously too soon to conclude, but there's not much to indicate it improved much if at all.

The false narrative that you and others love to give Eppler credit for is pretty darn annoying. There's no proof. The farmsystem is still rated near the bottom by almost every metric/ranking I've seen. There's no one close to being ready either, outside of Adell.

 

You love to blame Dipoto and then give Eppler a pass for the same issues plaguing this organization.

I think if Arte were willing to pour quite a bit more money into analytics and player development, Eppler could have done a lot more.

Look at Friedman.  He built a good team on a limited budget in TB, but now that he’s a Dodger and has way more financial resources, he has built an incredible juggernaut that will be competing for titles for a very, very long time.

So while Eppler didn’t get the job done, and certainly part of that is on him, I do suspect he could have done quite a bit better had he been given a much more generous scouting and analytics budget than he was provided

[DCAngelsFan]

10 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

They've got some good young pitchers, no? How does a perennial contender assemble such a group of young arms?

Walker Buehler - Draft (1st round, 24th pick)

Dustin May - draft (3rd round)

Julio Urias - international signing

Brusdar Graterol - trade

Tony Gonsolin - draft (9th round)

Caleb Ferguson - draft (38th round)

Victor Gonzalez - international signing

That's a nice assortment of young arms, all age 26 or younger this year. Only one is a 1st rounder - and he was drafted 24th.

I'm tempted to ask the rhetorical question: how do the Dodgers do this and why can't the Angels? The easy answer is scouting and player development, two areas the Dodgers excel at and the Angels have had mixed results in.

I hope Morosi is right, and the next GM focuses on internal development and tries to emulate teams like the Dodgers.

The fact they drafted many of these in late rounds says they didn't see them as "can't miss" draft prospects.   Yet their overall success in the draft suggests they're better at it than pretty much every other club.  

Would love to compare/contrast their process and notes on their successes - did their scouts see something others didn't?  Or is their development system superior, that if *we* drafted these same guys, they'd still be in "A" ball?   

Like you said - it's a rhetorical question, because we can't know the answer - only guess at it.   

But credit where credit is due - the Dodgers do this better than most everyone else, and I wish the Angels organization were as good at it.

(international signings are a particular pain point - the Angels have so thoroughly screwed that up - and with an owner whose name is 'Arturo Moreno', you'd think every Latin/South American player would want to play for the Angels)

 

[Vlad27Trout27]

So interesting enough, It's reported that the May was either going to get picked by the us or the dodger's in the 3rd round...... We went after Nonnie, and few picks later Dodgers picked May. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also May was ranked 144th and Nonnie was ranked 60.

[DCAngelsFan]

Interesting - we drafted six SS's that year - obviously, none have made any kind of impact (other than the impact of their careers splatting on the floor - Nonnie is in independent ball, and failing there) - for as many "defensive-minded" MIF's we've drafted, you'd think we'd hit at least "once."

Then again, looking at our draft history, other than 2009, it's a fairly depressing record of mediocrity - pretty much Fletcher is the only one who's been drafted and contributed in the last 6 drafts (Canning and Walsh are works in progress, and obviously, too soon to tell for recent drafts - there's some talent in the pipeline, we hope.)  

This has been  a major failing - if there's *anything* I hope for for this org, is that we hire a President and GM who are committed to making us better, much better at finding and developing talent.    

 

 

[Angelsjunky]

43 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

So interesting enough, It's reported that the May was either going to get picked by the us or the dodger's in the 3rd round...... We went after Nonnie, and few picks later Dodgers picked May. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also May was ranked 144th and Nonnie was ranked 60.

Ugh. I forgot about Nonie. Who knows, maybe he'll become some late-blooming utility player. Maybe.

[Vlad27Trout27]

Is Nonie even with us or did he get released?

[Inside Pitch]

8 hours ago, NrM said:

Except the farmsystem and player development hasn't improved under Eppler. Obviously too soon to conclude, but there's not much to indicate it improved much if at all.

I apologize for a response that will come off as possibly elitist or overly harsh but sometimes people say things so utterly stupid I don't really know how to respond other than to point out their glaring ignorance. 

First, I'm talking about investing in analytics and player development, not the actual results of those things. 

There is no question the Angels have budgeted more, spent more, and put a greater emphasis on those areas under Eppler than they did Dipoto or that they have more closely followed saber tendencies than at at point under JD.  This is true despite the fact that JD sold himself as a card carrying member of SABR and Eppler downplayed his expertise in the area -- which is possibly why he quadrupled the analytics dept.  Unlike JD, Eppler knew he needed to find better, more qualified people to make those decisions.  And yet having said all that I previously went on record in the "What three things would you do if you were hired to be the GM" thread as focusing solely on adding to the player dev and analytics departments...  Meaning that despite believing Eppler improved those areas, I feel he could have done more.   It's the single most cost effective way to improve a franchise.   

As far as there not being much to indicate the farm has improved at all, you'll have a hard time finding anyone with an actual clue that extends beyond prospect rankings that would agree with you.

8 hours ago, NrM said:

The false narrative that you and others love to give Eppler credit for is pretty darn annoying. There's no proof. The farmsystem is still rated near the bottom by almost every metric/ranking I've seen. There's no one close to being ready either, outside of Adell.

Your lack of insight outside of what the rankings tell you doesn't make for any false narratives -- it simply means you don't have any clue other than what you can find online and the most basic of "metrics."

Rankings tend to be all over the place depending on who is reviewing them and what their focus is, as such I have never put a lot of weight in them -- even when they propped the Angels up.  You've got tools sites, you've got saber sites, you've got proximity sites, you have FG's attempt at gauging future value ... they all measure and give credence to different things and make for differing opinions.   Rankings are also dependent players having graduated meaning they are always in flux which is why you see "prospect rankings" three or four times a year now.   The single biggest issue when looking at the Angels (ranking wise), is the overall youth of the farm system -- you have a ton of guys on the right side of the age .vs league argument and that tends to temper their results at times. 

Still, since you put so much weight in rankings -- here are a couple reminders for you..  https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/los-angeles-angels-top-10-prospects/   The best part of this list is that the guy responsible for signing Barria was fired by JD almost immediately after taking over.   The MLB top 30 isn't much better http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2015?list=ana   Thank god for David Fletcher!.   Zero top 100 guys .vs 3 currently.  Don't look now but Packy Naughton might have been in the conversation for the top prospect in the system in 2015.  

Even if all one does is focus on the rankings...  The massive difference between then and now is that the Angels were universally ranked dead last -- didn't matter where you looked it was 29 teams, 6 miles of shit, and then the Angels.   That simply isn't the case any longer, to argue otherwise is nuts.   If there is one area of real concern with the farm now that was evident then it's the lack of catching and that is 100% on Eppler's view of the position and saber leanings

8 hours ago, NrM said:

You love to blame Dipoto and then give Eppler a pass for the same issues plaguing this organization.

LOL..    If you had actually bothered to read any of my criticisms about JD it had almost nothing to do with where the Angels farm system ranked, I focused on his actual actions.

I blamed JD for creating dysfunction, for constantly leaking shit to the press, notice how that BS magically stopped as soon as he left -- almost as magically as it started when he got here.  I accused him of saying one thing then doing another when it came to sabermetric/baseball decisions.  I blamed him for focusing solely on high floor low ceiling players in the draft.  I blamed him for spending assets on RPs and for trading away international money while continuing to ignore the market as a whole.  I will continue to blame him for creating a mess it has taken years to reverse.  Feel free to show me where Eppler is guilty of any of the same things and then we can start to talk.   "But the rankings"... Giggity!

The next GM of the Angels won't be taking over a team with black holes at C, 2B, 3B, or LF and 7 more years of AP..   They won't find a farm system lacking upside at every level or handcuffed by bad financial decisions.   The next GM of the Angels won't have to spend the first three years of his tenue simply trying to correct his predecessor's mistakes just to get back to ground zero.  The next GM of the Angels will have Eppler to thank, and not blame.   There is a huge difference there, I'm sorry some can't see it.

I look forward to revisiting this thread in 5 years to see how well our differing opinions will have fared.

[Lou]

9 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

people say things so utterly stupid I don't really know how to respond other than to point out their glaring ignorance. 

That's my jam!

[DCAngelsFan]

25 minutes ago, Vlad27Trout27 said:

Is Nonie even with us or did he get released?

He was released in June, and was playing in independent ball - https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=5e3ef32d 

Based on those stats - .094 BA, and a near 50% SO rate, I think he's about done all he's gonna do in baseball.

[Docwaukee]

30 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I apologize for a response that will come off as possibly elitist or overly harsh but sometimes people say things so utterly stupid I don't really know how to respond other than to point out their glaring ignorance. 

First, I'm talking about investing in analytics and player development, not the actual results of those things. 

There is no question the Angels have budgeted more, spent more, and put a greater emphasis on those areas under Eppler than they did Dipoto or that they have more closely followed saber tendencies than at at point under JD.  This is true despite the fact that JD sold himself as a card carrying member of SABR and Eppler downplayed his expertise in the area -- which is possibly why he quadrupled the analytics dept.  Unlike JD, Eppler knew he needed to find better, more qualified people to make those decisions.  And yet having said all that I previously went on record in the "What three things would you do if you were hired to be the GM" thread as focusing solely on adding to the player dev and analytics departments...  Meaning that despite believing Eppler improved those areas, I feel he could have done more.   It's the single most cost effective way to improve a franchise.   

As far as there not being much to indicate the farm has improved at all, you'll have a hard time finding anyone with an actual clue that extends beyond prospect rankings that would agree with you.

Your lack of insight outside of what the rankings tell you doesn't make for any false narratives -- it simply means you don't have any clue other than what you can find online and the most basic of "metrics."

Rankings tend to be all over the place depending on who is reviewing them and what their focus is, as such I have never put a lot of weight in them -- even when they propped the Angels up.  You've got tools sites, you've got saber sites, you've got proximity sites, you have FG's attempt at gauging future value ... they all measure and give credence to different things and make for differing opinions.   Rankings are also dependent players having graduated meaning they are always in flux which is why you see "prospect rankings" three or four times a year now.   The single biggest issue when looking at the Angels (ranking wise), is the overall youth of the farm system -- you have a ton of guys on the right side of the age .vs league argument and that tends to temper their results at times. 

Still, since you put so much weight in rankings -- here are a couple reminders for you..  https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/los-angeles-angels-top-10-prospects/   The best part of this list is that the guy responsible for signing Barria was fired by JD almost immediately after taking over.   The MLB top 30 isn't much better http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2015?list=ana   Thank god for David Fletcher!.   Zero top 100 guys .vs 3 currently.  Don't look now but Packy Naughton might have been in the conversation for the top prospect in the system in 2015.  

Even if all one does is focus on the rankings...  The massive difference between then and now is that the Angels were universally ranked dead last -- didn't matter where you looked it was 29 teams, 6 miles of shit, and then the Angels.   That simply isn't the case any longer, to argue otherwise is nuts.   If there is one area of real concern with the farm now that was evident then it's the lack of catching and that is 100% on Eppler's view of the position and saber leanings

LOL..    If you had actually bothered to read any of my criticisms about JD it had almost nothing to do with where the Angels farm system ranked, I focused on his actual actions.

I blamed JD for creating dysfunction, for constantly leaking shit to the press, notice how that BS magically stopped as soon as he left -- almost as magically as it started when he got here.  I accused him of saying one thing then doing another when it came to sabermetric/baseball decisions.  I blamed him for focusing solely on high floor low ceiling players in the draft.  I blamed him for spending assets on RPs and for trading away international money while continuing to ignore the market as a whole.  I will continue to blame him for creating a mess it has taken years to reverse.  Feel free to show me where Eppler is guilty of any of the same things and then we can start to talk.   "But the rankings"... Giggity!

The next GM of the Angels won't be taking over a team with black holes at C, 2B, 3B, or LF and 7 more years of AP..   They won't find a farm system lacking upside at every level or handcuffed by bad financial decisions.   The next GM of the Angels won't have to spend the first three years of his tenue simply trying to correct his predecessors mistakes and just get back to ground zero.  The next GM of the Angels will have Eppler to thank, and not blame.   There is a huge difference there, I'm sorry some can't see it.

I look forward to revisiting this thread in 5 years to see how well our differing opinions will have fared.

[Stradling]

911-“What’s your emergency”

AngelsWin-“I would like to report a murder”

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, Warfarin said:

Look at Friedman.  He built a good team on a limited budget in TB, but now that he’s a Dodger and has way more financial resources, he has built an incredible juggernaut that will be competing for titles for a very, very long time.

For all his excellence as an exec, the drafts while he was GM in TB were generally very bad..   With LA he's had their massive player development team and that's made for a huge difference but the track record in TB was dubious at best outside of what people would consider to be easy picks (top 5 draft choices).

Friedman took over the TB GM position in 2005 at which point they had finished dead last in their division 8 times.  From 1999-2002 prior to his joining the franchise they picked 1-1, 1-8, 1-3, 1-2.  Upon becoming president of player development they drafted 1-1, 1-4, then as GM they drafted 1-3, 1-1, 1-1.   That's 9 drafts, FOUR where they picked 1st overall, THREE more where they picked no lower than 3rd, then one where they picked fourth and finally one where they picked 8th. 

Finally in 2008, the Rays break out of last place and are forced to draft outside of the top 8.   How did they do? 

Levon Washington* (09) 
Josh Sale* (10) 
Taylor Guereri (11)
Richie Shaffer (12)
Nick Ciuffo (13)
Casey Gillispie* (14).   

Three of those guys never made it out of the minors, the other two -- one is in Indy ball, the other has a career OPS of .529.   But thats just the top pick of each year and not every first rounder -- the Rays failures in the 2011 draft are legendary...

But here's a quick recap.

2009 -- They saw none of the first ten make it to MLB, and only 1 of the top 20 that actually signed with them.   Andrew Bellati.  Dylan Floro chose not to sign and was drafted again by Tampa Bay in 2012
2010 -- They had three first round picks 17, 31, 42,in Sale, Justin O"Connor, Drew Vettleson and two second rounders -- Derek Dietrich and Jake Thompson.   None of their 1st rounders made it to MLB and only Dietrich made it as a Reds player.
2011 -- They had TEN first and supplemental first rounders.   TEN of the first 60 picks in the draft..   Six of them never made it to MLB.  Of the four that did make it, it was the 6th one taken that turned out to be the bet of the lot -- Blake Snell.  Taylor Guereri, Mike Mahtook, and Tyler Goedel all basically busted.  All told they had 12 of the first 89 picks and the only thing they have to show for it still is Blake Snell -- that casts the Angels 2010 draft in a different light eh?
2012 -- Four of their top 20 made it to MLB -- of those Luke Maile 8th round, Joey Rickard 9th round, and Dylan Floro 13th.
2013 -- Both of their 1st rounders made, one of them good Stanek, the other one not good, Shaffer.   This is maybe their best draft under AF, with Johnny Field, Kean Wong, Roel Ramirez Jaime Schultz and Austin Pruitt having made it to MLB among their top 20 draft and signings.
2014 -- Among the top 20, only Brock Burke 3rd, and Braxton Lee 12th made it among the top 20.

Friedman's strength isn't farm systems it's asset management.   He's great at taking what he has and getting more or better from someone else.

[Taylor]

P00zy got pwned.

[Lou]

IP = 

[Inside Pitch]

50 minutes ago, Spin Rate said:

P00zy got pwned.

This explains so much. 

[NrM]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I look forward to revisiting this thread in 5 years to see how well our differing opinions will have fared.

There's a lot to respond to here. I'll just take it on the chin and move on. You didn't like how Dipoto was open to the media. You don't know what the org was going through under eppler because they were very closed nit. 

All I read was speculation on your part. It's clear you loved Eppler as a GM.